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PokerStrategy.com Forum » Community Boards » Staking: Offers and Requests » Railing » Rail for liguolong with wategun7
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wategun7
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Also what range do you defend vs 3bets? At different stacksizes, and different sizings?
New Post 23 Jan 2012 17:56 wategun7 is offline Search for Posts by wategun7 Add wategun7 to your Buddy List
liguolong
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Come 40bb deep is about average in husng, and if I filter too much close to 40bb I got only a few hands... According to the Ebook 86o is a call at 20bb against 70 percent minraiser
New Post 23 Jan 2012 17:59 liguolong is offline Search for Posts by liguolong Add liguolong to your Buddy List
liguolong
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Also even if I bet pot, I got called before with weak pair+diamond or just a mediocre diamond before. It is hard to say what my defend range is vs 3bets, depending on too much factors
New Post 23 Jan 2012 18:02 liguolong is offline Search for Posts by liguolong Add liguolong to your Buddy List
liguolong
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defending those weak hands like 86o is probably one of the most important thing I learnt from the ebook...
New Post 23 Jan 2012 18:04 liguolong is offline Search for Posts by liguolong Add liguolong to your Buddy List
wategun7
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OK but anyway it is close with 86o...

And also in the AJ hand, if you were called before, it doesn't mean you will be called again surely. Basically you are going into every game readless, and assuming the general population are all stations which I'm not sure about.
New Post 23 Jan 2012 18:07 wategun7 is offline Search for Posts by wategun7 Add wategun7 to your Buddy List
wategun7
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It is just too close. And we differ only slightly. I would defend 78o e.g...
New Post 23 Jan 2012 18:08 wategun7 is offline Search for Posts by wategun7 Add wategun7 to your Buddy List
phantommm92
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imo both 86o and 78o are quite bad defends, 100bb deep 78o, meh, it's ok, not more, 40bb you will always be loosing, unless your opponents is completely terrible

that ebook sounds super bad, wtf 86o vs 70% is already a big dog(36.5%) and OOP you will be outplayed so much, even 20bb deep
New Post 23 Jan 2012 18:35 phantommm92 is offline Search for Posts by phantommm92 Add phantommm92 to your Buddy List
liguolong
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The reason I like the ebook is because it is written by a husng pro who have analysed a big nr of hands. Therefore, he got the stats that we don't have and that is why he convinced me to listen to him. Also he didn't try to outplay postflop according to the ebook, he just check/fold like 70 percent of the time on flop. However, because he calls for only 1bb in the pot of 4bb, it sounds like that it is possible to be +ev to call to me, although I can't be sure without stats. since he analysed like over 20k of husngs, I trust his stats more.
New Post 23 Jan 2012 18:49 liguolong is offline Search for Posts by liguolong Add liguolong to your Buddy List
liguolong
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That is why I think it was a big leak of me for calling too tight, since without enough data, I would never figure out whether I should call looser, and his book is supported with fairly large data, and thus can teach me a lot which I won't figure out easily with experience, intuition etc.
New Post 23 Jan 2012 18:53 liguolong is offline Search for Posts by liguolong Add liguolong to your Buddy List
phantommm92
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well it depends on your postflop skills, from what i have seen they definitely aren't perfect, or close to it, so i'd stick with tighter ranges, but that's just me

This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by phantommm92: 23 Jan 2012 19:15.

New Post 23 Jan 2012 19:15 phantommm92 is offline Search for Posts by phantommm92 Add phantommm92 to your Buddy List
liguolong
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That is what I thought, but the guy writing the ebook suggested that he didn't play too skillful postflop, just check folding a lot. Like he said it is +ev to flat 96o with 25bb etc., I would never believe him if he didn't show me the stats he had, but with the stats, I just have to agree and try it.
New Post 23 Jan 2012 19:21 liguolong is offline Search for Posts by liguolong Add liguolong to your Buddy List
wategun7
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I agree with calling wider with deeper stacks definitely. Also sometimes the EV is different depending on villain tendencies (not just preflop raising range). E.g. if someone is a maniac, and triple barrels 100% of ranges, then calling with 86o preflop is just burning money. Though you more than make up for it with the rest of your range e.g. when you 3bet, or call down with GOOD top pair hands or better.

I'm just not too happy about calling with 86o at shallower stacksizes and don't trust the stats from Mersenneary too much (with these borderline hands) if it were me to play the hands (and he himself mentions that his oop defending range isn't agreed by every highstakes reg).
New Post 23 Jan 2012 19:25 wategun7 is offline Search for Posts by wategun7 Add wategun7 to your Buddy List
wategun7
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Also @phantom92- you should check it out- the ebook is really good. Too many regs don't defend enough oop hands I agree, but 86o is just borderline. For liguolong or me it may be -1.1bb or -0.9bb or w/e but we have no sample size yet.

I also disagree that playing 86o profitably is just a case of check folding 70% of the time- e.g. if you make one small mistake in the case when you don't check/fold, then you lose a huge amount of EV which easily tilts it to be worse than flatting preflop.
New Post 23 Jan 2012 19:30 wategun7 is offline Search for Posts by wategun7 Add wategun7 to your Buddy List
liguolong
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True, but if it is borderline at 20bb, it surely should be callable at 40 bb imo. I am not exactly sure about the border line either, but I was definitely calling too tight before. I don't mind making mistakes around borderline, I just try to not make those huge mistakes according to the book.
New Post 23 Jan 2012 19:38 liguolong is offline Search for Posts by liguolong Add liguolong to your Buddy List
liguolong
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The downswing continued a bit, 40:28 now.
New Post 23 Jan 2012 22:18 liguolong is offline Search for Posts by liguolong Add liguolong to your Buddy List
liguolong
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Ok, had a huge upswing after that, final score 64:36. total profit 683.84 and I will pay wategun7 accordingly
New Post 24 Jan 2012 03:10 liguolong is offline Search for Posts by liguolong Add liguolong to your Buddy List
wategun7
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Well done! What is your EV winnings? Any idea? I made such a good deal smile
New Post 24 Jan 2012 03:11 wategun7 is offline Search for Posts by wategun7 Add wategun7 to your Buddy List
liguolong
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I ran over 300 above EV!
New Post 24 Jan 2012 03:17 liguolong is offline Search for Posts by liguolong Add liguolong to your Buddy List
wategun7
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Good. Anyway you would have won money had you ran on your EV line- you are a good horse to back.
New Post 24 Jan 2012 03:30 wategun7 is offline Search for Posts by wategun7 Add wategun7 to your Buddy List
liguolong
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I send you some money, but because of the money transfer limit I still owe you 432.07
New Post 24 Jan 2012 03:30 liguolong is offline Search for Posts by liguolong Add liguolong to your Buddy List
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