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FL Negetive Showdown Winnings...

  • 16 replies
    • kruger32
      kruger32
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      Or should I at least reach 5k before making adjustments?
    • gape0000
      gape0000
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.08.2007 Posts: 628
      I think u should reach more like 20k at least and even then its not a definitive thing.
      Also if u ran into players top ranges it doesnt necessarily mean ur calls were too loose.
      I would suggest u also post hands where u are not sure if u made a good call esp. in spots that come up often, a good idea is to group some hands like calling with A high, mid pairs , bot pairs and so on.
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 22,031
      Hi kruger32,

      1k hands is not a sufficient sample to make any accurate deductions about your play. As suggested above 20k hands or even 50k hands would be a lot better and easier to make calculations from our play.

      Keep grinding!

      Gary
    • datsmahname
      datsmahname
      Global
      Joined: 23.11.2009 Posts: 1,366
      • 26.05.2012, 17:04
      • This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by datsmahname: 26.05.2012 17:05.
      Hey kruger,

      There are different explinations for having a -SD graph. You may be playing well preflop and following the charts will certainly help, but you're right to think that the problem may actually be postflop.

      Of course, luck may always be a factor but this is not something we control. A large sample would let us decide based on stats alone, but probably we can get a decent idea by looking at specific hands. This will save us money and time.

      I'd suggest posting some of the weaker hands which you decide to show down (turn calls that check through might be relevant).

      You might also wish to post some semibluff or pure bluff hands. If you happen to be bluffing a lot or bluff in situations where folds aren't happening this would result in more losses at SD. This may include playing unimproved broadway hands aggressively postflop.
    • kruger32
      kruger32
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      I never bluff. I play a little weak tight. I was hoping to beat the lowest limit with just ABC poker. Think I need to play more aggro. I'll grind upto 5k in the next few days.

      My win rate is -7BB/100 hands.

      The graph is so steep that it doesn't even have short bounces. It is a downhill straight line.
      That's why I'm worried.
    • datsmahname
      datsmahname
      Global
      Joined: 23.11.2009 Posts: 1,366
      The slope of your graph, your winrate, and your level of aggression.. they are all just engine heat. They're just byproducts.

      Think about and analyze your decisions. The easiest way to do this is to post hands and provide your thought process from one decision to the next.
    • kruger32
      kruger32
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      Hey,
      Thanks for your advice.
      I should focus on the decisions rather than the outcome, that's what you're saying right?
      Going through all my hands right now.

      About the HUHU (from another post), I realized I'm too weak to join coaching. My time would be better spent grinding for experience first. But thanks for your great advice.

      Also I have the program : Poker Academy. It allows you to configure the bots down to the last detail. Pre-flop hand selection, post flop aggresion etc. Great way to practice against different players right (For HUHU of course)? Reading about PA bots more and seems to me the Sparbot is really tough to beat? You know about this?

      Reading through the Bellatrix post I concluded the only way to get better at HUHU is practice and experience.
    • datsmahname
      datsmahname
      Global
      Joined: 23.11.2009 Posts: 1,366
      Re: training bots

      These are kind of interesting but also quite controversial. Playing against a bot might be an excellent training tool. If you have some success practicing against them I'll be interested to read about that.
    • kruger32
      kruger32
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      Originally posted by datsmahname
      Re: training bots

      These are kind of interesting but also quite controversial. Playing against a bot might be an excellent training tool. If you have some success practicing against them I'll be interested to read about that.
      You're not being sarcastic right?
      =)
      OK, I'll log in a lot of hours and tell you about my progress.

      The common configs for the bots are:

      Tricky-Honest --> Bluff frequency
      Loose-Tight -->Determined by percent. Hand range selection.
      Passive-Aggresive -->Percent selectable, 100% passive = All call; 100% Agg = All Raise

      Mathematics-Model -->OK, this is interesting. In math mode, the opponent uses optimized-approximate Game Theory to make the play. In the model mode the opponent abandons Game Theory and attempts to attack holes in your play. (we need to log in lots of hands first to give the computer a good model of our playing style). So in Model mode it is a mirror of your play.

      Question to Dashmahname,
      I'll create 4 bot profiles first.
      TAG / LAG/ Maniac/ Weak-tight.

      What kind of configs should I use; based on the ones given above?
    • datsmahname
      datsmahname
      Global
      Joined: 23.11.2009 Posts: 1,366
      I wouldn't know about how to configure them mainly because I've never used that stuff before. Those profiles are a good start. I might also include a more "average" guy. Not that aggressive or passive, not that loose or tight.
    • William340
      William340
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2012 Posts: 170
      even though the standard answer is "you need way more hands for it to be meaningful" I am going to voice a contrary opinion.

      your negative win rate is worrisome, because if it were to persist over 10K, 20K or 50K hands you will have dug yourself a huge hole.

      assuming 7BB means "big bets" or twice the big blind at your game, let's take 20K hands.
      20K/100 = 200 *7*2 = 2800 big blinds = 28 buy ins for your limit.

      that's a lot to lose while you wait to analyze your game.

      so, if I were you, I'd start w/ the basic stats:
      look at vpip/pfr by position

      also, review your big winning and big losing hands.
      post some in the hand evaluation forum (or in here) so we can see
      (for losers)
      are you getting yourself in bad spots?
      getting cooler'd?
      not laying down weak holdings?
      getting sucked out on?
      if you lose to suckouts, are you betting enough to protect your hand?
      etc.

      (for winners)
      did you win because you sucked out?
      are you doing a good job maximizing the size of your winning pots?
      could you have won more

      the experts are right that you need a lot of hands for some of the analysis to be meaningful.
      but - not if you play badly or have some huge leaks.
      (and I am not saying you do!)
      but, "if" you are making some big beginner's mistakes, it would be best not to repeat then thousands of times before "discovering" them.

      so, I think it would be worthwhile if you told us your pre-flop stats by position and posted some winners & losers.
    • datsmahname
      datsmahname
      Global
      Joined: 23.11.2009 Posts: 1,366
      Yep, I agree with William. It wouldn't make any sense to let a boat sink before deciding whether it had a hole. The best way to find leaks is by posting hands, examining your decisions, and getting some feedback from other players.
    • kruger32
      kruger32
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      • 02.06.2012, 05:21
      • This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by kruger32: 02.06.2012 08:23.
      Hey William thanks for your Genuine and very helpful post. Meant to reply your post, but kept procrastinating.

      I'll post my results after putting in some volume. However, as said before my post-flop play is the problem (I think). My results have already improved after I concentrated on good postflop play.

      Cheers

      (How come you're bronze?)
    • William340
      William340
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2012 Posts: 170
      kruger -
      don't be so sure that your problems are post-flop.
      a lot of post-flop problems are caused by pre-flop decisions/problems/mistakes.
      (the old "how did I get into this mess?" question.)

      on my "bronze" -
      I started w/ 3 free months of gold membership through an offer on 2+2.
      That ran out on June 1, and I was trying to buy the points for Silver, but was having a problem w/ Moneybookers, my credit card & Internet Explorer.
      at their advice, I switched to Chrome & it worked fine, but it took a few days to figure out.
      As a US player, I don't have any options/opportunities to earn status/level.
      While the gold membership was certainly very nice, I cannot currently justify paying to continue it when I am basically a 4NL beginner.

      as a "low volume" player (about 16k hands since signing up at Merge late February), I understand when the high volume guys want a big sample for a decent review, but I look at my case - I might not log 50k hands in a YEAR!
      I might, but that's not the point.
      The point is, I would not want to make the same mistakes for that long before fixing them.
      I have plenty of leaks to correct.

      I just searched the hand evaluation forum for your username & I only see one thread from May 2.
      :cough:

      you should post hands.
      especially the ones where you think you had a problem post flop.
      let the community members & experts chime in.

      I hope that you are not avoiding posting hands because you are "shy" or worried about looking bad!
      because everyone starts as a beginner.
      I got a few surprises when I posted a few hands and discovered I knew very little about bet sizing properly or even when to bet in some spots.
      but every time I post a hand, I learn a lot.

      do you have PT or HM?
      scan it for some of the hands you were not sure about & post them!
      have you analyzed your vpip/pfr by position yet?

      you can procrastinate on your replies, but don't put off looking at your game! ;)
    • kruger32
      kruger32
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      Wow what an awesome post! Thanks William!

      The last couple of days I've not been able to play much; only reached about 2000 hands : (

      I just searched the hand evaluation forum for your username & I only see one thread from May 2.
      You're more dedicated to helping me than I am : )
      Thanks a lot.

      The point is, I would not want to make the same mistakes for that long before fixing them.

      Agreed. I'm currently on the starting capital; and don't want it to vanish just "Building my boat."

      OK, I think I'll get some hands and post them in the Fixed Limit section later today.

      Once again, thank you for your awesome post.
    • William340
      William340
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2012 Posts: 170
      I see I was searching the "NL" hand evaluation forum instead of "FL" forum.
      but, I also see when I search the correct forum that the results did not change.
      :evil:

      I probably should not badger you, but I will anyway. :D

      my concern with my own leaks is correcting them before they become a bad habits that I have to break.

      A poker buddy of mine reviewed a bunch of my hands a year or so ago and said,
      "I'm going to rip the "call" button off your computer!"

      :f_eek: