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[NL20-NL50] NL20 FR - QKs flush draw

    • ratex
      ratex
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.11.2007 Posts: 2,795
      Titan Poker 0.10/0.20, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

      saw flop | saw showdown

      Button ($18.37)
      SB ($19.16)
      BB BB ($20.71)
      UTG ($6.79)
      UTG+1 ($20.30)
      MP Hero ($23.73)
      MP ($26.31)
      MP ($35.10)
      CO-1 CO-1 ($4.47)
      CO ($28.27)

      Preflop: Hero is in MP with K:heart: Q:heart:
      2 folds, Hero calls 0.20, 2 folds, CO-1 calls 0.20, 3 folds, BB checks.

      Flop (0.70) 7:heart: 2:club: 8:heart:
      BB checks, Hero bets 0.60, CO-1 calls 0.60, BB calls 0.60.

      Turn (2.50) 5:club:
      BB checks, Hero checks, CO-1 bets 1.60, BB calls 1.60, Hero calls 1.60.

      River (7.30) 5:heart:
      BB checks, Hero bets 5.00, 1 fold, BB moves all-in for 18.31, Hero calls 13.31
  • 36 replies
    • mintogo
      mintogo
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.05.2008 Posts: 256
      No open limps mate, u dont know nothing now, BB could easily have 58 or something.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      fold preflop according to the SHC.

      As played, we haven't got any information what so ever.

      I think for him to move allin, he has you beat. Either nut flush or full house IMO. But whether or not to call is stat dependant.

      BTW whats your titan SN?
    • redrockrain
      redrockrain
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.05.2008 Posts: 8
      I probly would have folded to his turn bet... 1.60 into a 2.50 pot is pretty expensive...

      He could have been also betting on a weaker flush draw, but depends how well you know the player IMO
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Raise pf
      KQs is nice hand to open.
      BB could have 5 or lower flush, I would call.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Raising pf isn't on the SHC. I keep getting told to play 100% to the SHC, and you keep saying different. I think your saying to play it like its NL200, but surely on NL20ish we should just fold this. (as told to in the SHC)
    • ratex
      ratex
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.11.2007 Posts: 2,795
      • 09.06.2008, 02:32
      • This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by ratex: 09.06.2008 02:32.
      I agree with cannell555.
      Everybody says that we should follow the SHC.

      Do you really think that is more profitable to change out pre-flop play on NL20, Kaitz20?
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Open limping with KQs from MP is mistake + SHC says that open raise if everyone elsa has folded. One thing is to play poker when you have no idea about hand ranges, opponents, different flop textures, but other thing is when you know all of these things. What happens, if you open limp pf:
      you get 1-2 limpers or if someone raises then you should fold according to the SHC and players would isolate you with T9s, 65s, 44.
      Think of pokerstrategy SHC as first lession how to play poker, for then on you should play tag/lag style, whichever suits you best and against different opponents you can´t use the same strategy.
      But my suggestion to you: if you consider playing a hand, raise-whether there have been limpers or not, since you then have very easy to play on raised pot and you can also put players on hand ranges.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Kaitz20. If I am now being told you have to change the SHC at NL20, why have the chart in the 1st place. IMO your still a begginer if your playing NL20. So either your telling us wrong information, or the SHC is wrong. In which case it should be deleted.

      Am sry Kaitz20 but the SHC has obviously been made over a huge samplesize, so why would you suggest a beginner to change it?

      I dont think you should tell people to change the chart.
    • ratex
      ratex
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.11.2007 Posts: 2,795
      He's kind right, cannell555.

      He's not saying that we should change the whole SHC, but to adapt it according with the circunstances. If we stick on SHC 101% of time, we are going to have a good pre-flop game.
      But if we have the possibility to adapt it and have an excellent pre-flop game, should we do?

      So, Kaitz20, do you have any more suggestions about adapting the SHC?
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      Definitely. While getting experience, play strictly according to SHC and articles, and as you become more familiar, you can adjust according to what your reads are. Just remember that open limping is nearly always bad, from any position. If you have a playable hand, raise with it when you are first in. Otherwise, fold.
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      Hello everybody

      I suggest beginners to strictly follow the SHC. In this case it means to fold. Anyway: If you are able to adapt and feel confortable playing more pots and more marginal situations postflop you can also raise or even limp this hand. Actually it really depends on the table. Is the table tight I raise KQs, is the table loose and agressive and fishy I limp. Are there many shortstacks? I fold! Are the bad players in the blinds and the good players directly behind you? I raise! Limping isn't always that bad. I also limp small pockets from early positions and sometimes even suited connectors.
      But bear in mind the factors for playing differing from the SHC!

      Best regards,
      TribunCaesar
    • ratex
      ratex
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.11.2007 Posts: 2,795
      Thanks TribunCaeser.

      I think I'm going to adapt the SCH in some very specific situations by now, I'm going to do that gradually (Following the SHC still give me good results on Nl20 so far) and I'll keep post as much hands I that can. :P
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Whenever I have asked about this, people state over and over, that you shouldn't change this SHC until playing NL100, therefore being experianced. Now we should adapt to the table? IMHO i think a NL20 player changing a strategy (probably made over 1000's of hand ) is bullshit. If the starting hands chart is wrong it should be changed, If its right, you people should just admit you made a mistake. Instead of beating around the bush, sticking up for eachother. What your telling me is its worthless me posting hands.

      If this hand is table and stat dependant, why didn't he get asked for all this? Instead Kaitz20 just said open raise with no stats or table image known. Which means it obviously isn't stat dependant, so is the SHC wrong?

      I'm not letting this go, because somewhere along the line this site is giving wrong info.
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      Hey Cannell555

      The SHC is not wrong. The SHC is just the basis for every beginner. And I said that I advice every beginner to not play differently from the SHC. Following him 100% is good. But: As soon you are able to adjust at players and stats etc. you can do so. I don't want to tell you just one line. In poker there is not just one truth. We, as we are hand judges can give advices but can't tell you just one truth, cause this one truth is not existent.
      I hope you understand my point.

      Greetings,
      TribunCaesar
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      • 11.06.2008, 14:28
      • This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by cannell555: 11.06.2008 14:39.
      So at NL20 a player is experianced enough to change to the tables? I cant argue with that.

      But my point is trib:

      You say adapt the SHC to the table (which okay,thats fine), but knowone knows how the table was playing (stats etc.) So how can anyone comment to raise this hand? If its stat and table dependant, then he should be asked for this info, instead of saying raise preflop. Thats my arguement.

      If you say at NL20 people are experianced enough to loosen up, so be it (who am I to argue that). But IMO if its stat dependant, he should be asked for these stats (and people shouldn't say raise without these stats).

      For all we know hero might be a total gambler, who cant play poker, using his full BR. So how can we say change the SHC without knowing?


      @kaitz20, is hero a good player? A winning player? Was the table full of fish? Whats hero's stats? His table image? Without this can you tell hero to raise KQs Preflop? Or should you have asked about the stats? And were you wrong to say raise?
    • Thorsten77
      Thorsten77
      Black
      Joined: 28.05.2006 Posts: 12,896
      Regarding whether you should stick to the SHC or not: I think the SHC is really helpful for beginners as it helps them to avoid the typical mistakes such as playing dominated hands too often etc.
      If you change the SHC, you should have a good understanding why you play a hand differently. Open-Limping with KQs is not a good choice in most situations, thats why Kaitz suggested to openraise. However, if you don't have the experience, just play according to the SHC.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      thorsten, It is apparently stat dependant whether or not to fold or raise. right? so how can anyone say open raise here? Obviously openlimping that hand is the worst way to play it, thats not my point.

      I think kaitz should reply to my last post, and if he was wrong, he should say so. If he thinks you should raise this hand as begginers (which you are at NL20), without any stats present, then the SHC should be changed. If it is stat dependant then this hand shouldn't have been evaluated, with no stats present.

      I dont like causing conflict but there is a SH player, evaluating FR games, giving wrong info. Thats why i'm not interested in posting anymore hands.
    • ratex
      ratex
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.11.2007 Posts: 2,795
      I think this post should be rewarded! :D
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      I think this post should be answered by Kaitz! :D
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