[NL20-NL50] NL20 FR - QKs flush draw

    • ratex
      ratex
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      Joined: 15.11.2007 Posts: 2,795
      I've called the judge again! ;)
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
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      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by cannell555
      Kaitz20. If I am now being told you have to change the SHC at NL20, why have the chart in the 1st place. IMO your still a begginer if your playing NL20. So either your telling us wrong information, or the SHC is wrong. In which case it should be deleted.

      Am sry Kaitz20 but the SHC has obviously been made over a huge samplesize, so why would you suggest a beginner to change it?

      I dont think you should tell people to change the chart.
      I´m not suggesting to change it, but open limping KQs is bad for MP. Either raise or fold. I´d raise.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
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      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by ratex
      I agree with cannell555.
      Everybody says that we should follow the SHC.

      Do you really think that is more profitable to change out pre-flop play on NL20, Kaitz20?
      All the next suggestions is made the possible hand ranges of opponent. You can check them all yourself out if you use for example Equalator or pokerstove
      - I´d 3-bet JJ, TT when open raise is from CO or BU.
      - I´d raise AQ MP when someone limped in early position.
      - Not sure if limping suited connectors (for example 65s) is profitable from MP. Limp/fold sucks. Limp/call also isn´t the best. And in mutliway pot you should really hit hard to continue your hand. So I´d just fold them from MP.

      But I don´t play Fullring any more. But it is always easy to play raised, than limped pot. So thatś why I´d always raise when I decide to come into pot on limped pot (but that´s also 6-max). Fullring game it is probably more profitable limping with low pp-s or suited connectors.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
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      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by cannell555
      thorsten, It is apparently stat dependant whether or not to fold or raise. right? so how can anyone say open raise here? Obviously openlimping that hand is the worst way to play it, thats not my point.

      I think kaitz should reply to my last post, and if he was wrong, he should say so. If he thinks you should raise this hand as begginers (which you are at NL20), without any stats present, then the SHC should be changed. If it is stat dependant then this hand shouldn't have been evaluated, with no stats present.

      I dont like causing conflict but there is a SH player, evaluating FR games, giving wrong info. Thats why i'm not interested in posting anymore hands.
      Maybe you´re right. I should not comment any more Fullring hands.
      Poker is generally the same only Fullring games are tighter. I´m not giving advise to 3-bet loose to defend your blinds or making 4-bet bluffs. But can you say as FUllring player- how limping with high cards can be profitable? Anyway if you want I don´t evaluate any more at your posts. Thorsten has enough Fullring experience, so for now on he can evaluate your posts. Probably getting better answers than 2+2.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Originally posted by Kaitz20

      Maybe you´re right. I should not comment any more Fullring hands.
      Poker is generally the same only Fullring games are tighter. I´m not giving advise to 3-bet loose to defend your blinds or making 4-bet bluffs. But can you say as FUllring player- how limping with high cards can be profitable? Anyway if you want I don´t evaluate any more at your posts. Thorsten has enough Fullring experience, so for now on he can evaluate your posts. Probably getting better answers than 2+2.
      NO, I cant tell you how limping high cards is profitable, if you look at my 1st post I told him to fold. I'm not saying to limp that hand, that is obviously the worst option here. What i'm saying is without any stats at all, how can you tell him to raise preflop, when the SHC says fold. IMO its a fold on this limit without any stats.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
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      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by cannell555
      Originally posted by Kaitz20

      Maybe you´re right. I should not comment any more Fullring hands.
      Poker is generally the same only Fullring games are tighter. I´m not giving advise to 3-bet loose to defend your blinds or making 4-bet bluffs. But can you say as FUllring player- how limping with high cards can be profitable? Anyway if you want I don´t evaluate any more at your posts. Thorsten has enough Fullring experience, so for now on he can evaluate your posts. Probably getting better answers than 2+2.
      NO, I cant tell you how limping high cards is profitable, if you look at my 1st post I told him to fold. I'm not saying to limp that hand, that is obviously the worst option here. What i'm saying is without any stats at all, how can you tell him to raise preflop, when the SHC says fold. IMO its a fold on this limit without any stats.
      Dunno. I disagree.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      SHC is wrong? just so I know!
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
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      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by cannell555
      SHC is wrong? just so I know!
      I´ve never said that SHC is wrong.
      You don´t have to agree to me, but I don´t change my opinion, just because one chart says smt else. Poker isn´t about following the charts pf and then making 100% contibet on the flop if you miss. It is always players/situation dependent and against NL 20 loose players I´d play different than says SHC. Can´t I have my own opinion?
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      How do you know they are loose? were you watching the table? so on NL20 and lower we should play different to the SHC because players are looser? Which means we only play to the SHC on NL50 and higher? Which is when where experianced and dont need the SHC. So why have the SHC in the first place?

      I fail to see any logic in the whole thing!
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      BTW ratex, I took this hand to the hand coaching. Hasenbraten and Tribunceasure both said fold preflop without any stats. So I guess playing to SHC is right after all, if we have no stats.
    • SonicXT
      SonicXT
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      Joined: 15.06.2007 Posts: 4,736
      The SHC is right for beginners. Given that you make such a fuss about whether or not to follow strict, absolute guidelines, I'd suggest you to keep to the SHC.
      However, in poker, nothing is absolute. You evolve as a player and the first thing to do is to get a grasp of the rules, then you get a grasp of the basic ABC strategies (of which the SHC is a part), only afterwards you develop your own playing style with your own little adjustments you feel most comfortable with.

      The largest advantage of the Starting Hand Chart is that it will yield the best average results (EV) for the lower levels for all possible situations (loose/tight table, loose/tight image, maniac/rock tables, good and bad players, postflop play good/mediocre/lamentable...)
      Because it yields the best average result, beginners are advised to keep to it as it's good for any situation you face.

      Only after you mastered the basics, you can think in terms of strategic hand selection versus maniacs and idiots, loosen up on tight tables and tighten up on loose tables, perpetual ATC plays on dead moments etc ... if you mastered both the preflop and postflop basics. So, neither conclusion is right or wrong. Don't blame Kaitz, he probably just thought you were better than you might actually be.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      1st off its not my hand. 2nd I do change the SHC and play to my surroundings. Have you not read the whole post?

      You have just verified everything i'm saying. You change to the surroundings, yes. But we dont know the surroundings, so why say change the SHC? You obviously haven't thought about what your saying. You've contradicted everything in your post BTW.

      you say dont blame kaitz, he might think your better than you are. People shouldn't be making asumptions, you should be asked for the info. Its just rediculous if someone is telling you to play a certain hand a certain way, when they dont know the scenario. If they have no info they should say fold preflop, as thats what the SHC says.

      Next time you try to flame me, read the post, and also read your own post before posting it. So you dont look stupid!

      @sonic, I'm not interested in anything else other than: He should have been told to fold this hand preflop, because we have no stats. Hasenbraten and Tribunceasar have both verified this now. So I already know what i'm saying is right, so its not worth you telling me otherwise, because your wrong.
    • SonicXT
      SonicXT
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      Joined: 15.06.2007 Posts: 4,736
      Fine, it was someone else's hand, not yours, sorry about that.
      The point of my post was that there is no right or wrong and the flaming of your part on Kaitz was unnecessary for the reasons stated below. KQs in MP in an unraised, unlimped pot is a borderline case anyway, the most important thing to know about that is not to limp in first in.

      I guess I jumped on it a bit too quickly and didn't mean to flame though, but my apologies for that if it may have appeared so. However, the nitpicking on whether to raise or fold preflop and demanding his apologies for his suggestion to raise isn't necessary. I see no reason "not to let this go", it's not thàt important and different opinions is what poker's about.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      In NL100 and up, yes its a raise or fold depending on stats. In NL20 with no stats, its a fold everytime! People shouldn't change the SHC without stats on NL20.
    • timukasr
      timukasr
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      Joined: 26.05.2007 Posts: 1,820
      Originally posted by cannell555
      In NL100 and up, yes its a raise or fold depending on stats. In NL20 with no stats, its a fold everytime! People shouldn't change the SHC without stats on NL20.
      Pff, couple months ago there was SHC where KQ was raise in any situation from middle pos. to blinds. I have successfully grinded with that SHC from NL5 FR to NL25 FR. Of course PS poker pros want to make strategy more foolproof so I respect those new SHCs (similar situation was with the call15 rule which they cahnged to call20 rule becase many beginners didn't have enough postflop skills with pockets on lower limits).
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      I dont care about the old SHC TBH. The new one states to fold, so we should fold. On NL20 without stats you cant tell people to play advanced poker, bacause your simply not an advanced player on this limit.
    • ratex
      ratex
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      Joined: 15.11.2007 Posts: 2,795
      Yes, we should follow the SHC when having no stats of our opponents.
      That was the case of my hand. My mistake limping it from MP...

      If we are comfortable with our game, and we do have stats, we probably should modify the SHC. It really can be dangerous for NL20 players, it's a risk, but we learn more from our mistakes.

      :)
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