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500NL Zoom - 100k hands - Rail Thread

    • Alan883
      Alan883
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2008 Posts: 1,941
      Originally posted by maritsula
      Hey BsB.

      I hope your health recovers soon!

      About the stake, if you don't reach B/E in the last 10k hands, I think its a good idea to extend the stake for a bit longer until we reach B/E. ( given the other stakers agree ofc)

      This way investors can at least get their investment back and it will help you get future stakes as investors will see the gesture to extend the stake to cover the losses of stakers very positively!

      Let me know what you think about this suggestion
      I don't know if he will agree with that, but i somehow believe in him and i would agree to extend the stake.
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Originally posted by maritsula
      Hey BsB.

      I hope your health recovers soon!

      About the stake, if you don't reach B/E in the last 10k hands, I think its a good idea to extend the stake for a bit longer until we reach B/E. ( given the other stakers agree ofc)

      This way investors can at least get their investment back and it will help you get future stakes as investors will see the gesture to extend the stake to cover the losses of stakers very positively!

      Let me know what you think about this suggestion
      Hasn't BsB grinded 200nl a lot already to recover the losses from 500nl?

      I honestly think that he has been very fair to play 200nl whereas 500nl was the agreed stake. He could have very well kept playing 500nl and already did all the backers a favour.

      It is in my opinion very greedy and unfair to ask him to extend the stake to cover losses playing a game he is super +EV in.

      Staking is a risky business and backers should stop complaining whenever a stake ends up in the red.
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,064
      Originally posted by Dublimax
      Originally posted by maritsula
      Hey BsB.

      I hope your health recovers soon!

      About the stake, if you don't reach B/E in the last 10k hands, I think its a good idea to extend the stake for a bit longer until we reach B/E. ( given the other stakers agree ofc)

      This way investors can at least get their investment back and it will help you get future stakes as investors will see the gesture to extend the stake to cover the losses of stakers very positively!

      Let me know what you think about this suggestion
      Hasn't BsB grinded 200nl a lot already to recover the losses from 500nl?

      I honestly think that he has been very fair to play 200nl whereas 500nl was the agreed stake. He could have very well kept playing 500nl and already did all the backers a favour.

      It is in my opinion very greedy and unfair to ask him to extend the stake to cover losses playing a game he is super +EV in.

      Staking is a risky business and backers should stop complaining whenever a stake ends up in the red.
      ^ this.

      He did his best to make money, and the results show it. If you guys are competent enough you will agree and won't ask for extended stake.

      Regards,

      Rihard
    • maritsula
      maritsula
      Silver
      Joined: 19.12.2011 Posts: 905
      Hey guys, thanks for your input :)

      @Max

      Originally posted by Dublimax
      Hasn't BsB grinded 200nl a lot already to recover the losses from 500nl?

      I honestly think that he has been very fair to play 200nl whereas 500nl was the agreed stake. He could have very well kept playing 500nl and already did all the backers a favour.
      Dropping down to nl200 was a term of the stake.

      Originally posted by BrokesoBroke

      I'm looking for a stake of $25,000 (50BI's). If the account drops down to $17,500 (35BI's) then I shall drop down to 200NL Zoom and grind until i'm back to $22,500 and then move back to 500NL. If the stake ends in a loss, I shall include 100% of the RB to offset the losses.

      Originally posted by Dublimax

      It is in my opinion very greedy and unfair to ask him to extend the stake to cover losses playing a game he is super +EV in.

      Describing me as greedy and unfair is just wrong. I dont think you are in position to judge as you dont have the full information about my position/involvement in this stake.

      For what is worth, initially I chose to not buy % of the stake for my own reasons (I do believe this stake is profitable for everyone involved). BsB contacted me on skype a few days after the stake was fully reserved, saying that one guy dropped out and if I could buy some %. I did buy $2k worth, mostly to help BsB since I consider him a friend. ( I repeat : I do believe the stake was and is +ev)

      Originally posted by Dublimax
      Staking is a risky business and backers should stop complaining whenever a stake ends up in the red.
      I didnt see anyone complaining so far. All backers were and are very supportive of BsB. If you are referring to me, what I did is to make a suggestion to improve the situation for both parties. Investors recover losses and stakee improves his reputation and ability to attract future stakes.

      And after all this is a suggestion right?

      Its up to BsB to agree/disagree and whatever he chooses to do I will respect his decision and will continue to view him the same way as I always did, as a trustworthy, competent (and somewhat funny) person :heart:

      I would also like to hear the opinion of people who are involved in the stake!
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Originally posted by maritsula
      And after all this is a suggestion right?

      Its up to BsB to agree/disagree and whatever he chooses to do I will respect his decision and will continue to view him the same way as I always did, as a trustworthy, competent (and somewhat funny) person :heart:

      Yes and no! Once you suggested it, he will look like the bad guy if he doesn't do it so you are technically black mailing him. If you wanted to suggest something without public pressure you should have done it in private imo. Public discussions of what someone should or should not do when favouring others is just leveraging your position.

      I think your intention was good but anyone who is just following this and is thinking whether or not to back BsB later will put too much emphasis on his response to you. If he says yes, it is expected of him to do it in all futures stakes and maybe then some. If he says no, he looks like the bad guy that is not flexible to cutting losses.

      If you look at all his staking applications so far: In first he didn't share RB, people talked about that when he was down. In next application he did share RB to cover losses and now there's a discussion to extend a stake in a game where BsB is rolled and profitable to favour backers.

      Once his only benefit for doing what you asked is not damaging reputation, he cannot win. :)
    • maritsula
      maritsula
      Silver
      Joined: 19.12.2011 Posts: 905
      I see your point clearly Manu but I think you are taking it too far by suggesting that technically its a blackmail. This is a suggestion and nothing else. On hindsight, speaking with BsB in skype first would have been better but it didnt cross my mind this simple suggestion would be taken the wrong way.

      The issue is the following. In the staking business, a generally accepted practise is the inclusion of make-up. If you apply for stake at any stable they will always include make-up. In most cases this means that in case of a stake ending in a loss the staker retains the option to continue to stake the stakee until he recovers losses. In more extreme cases, the stakee has to pay a significant portion % of the losses (50%+).

      Since i am involved in other stake besides the stakes offered at PS where makeup is always a part of the stake I was under the impression that this generally accepted practise applied at PS stakes. As it turns out this practise was not implemented at PS cash games stakes because frankly, no staker mentioned it and probably none of the stakee's knew about it!

      The only two active cash stake at PS forums are BsB and Thorek's. When i realised the lack of make-up in the cash stakes at PS due to ignorance, I suggested it to Thorek when he applied for a new cash stake and he promptly accepted it.

      This is the only reason why I am making the suggestion. Not because I can't take the loss from the stake but because it should have been included from the beginning.

      And contrary to what you suggested Manu, BsB declining my suggestion will not hurt his reputation as it was not part of the initial deal. This omittance, is the stakers fault not the stakee's as they should have noticed that!

      And if you think about it, why would declining the suggestion hurt BsB reputation when the guy who made the suggestion, myself, has only the best to say about BsB?

      Edit: I just saw the BsB/Pleno dispute on another thread. Bad timing for my suggestion i guess. :O
    • srohack
      srohack
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 1,908
      hi
      i think the best for all is the stake to end at 100k hands . i don t want to continue the deal over 100k hands . please refund when the period is over .
      thanks , gl hf .
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      I know about make-up and I think it's definitely a good thing but once it is not included in the initial agreement, you should discuss it in private if you want it to not affect reputation of either.

      I know you didn't have any bad intentions but I am very certain it will damage BsB's reputation because he omitted something that now you say is standard and will drive away people new to staking after they read this.

      Staker:'Oh Black Member asking for a stake, cool! I can make some $$. [reads feedback and rail threads]. Wait so stakers think he doesn't offer a standard deal but makes it more in his favour. Idk, I should prob not get involved, who knows what else I am missing here.'

      I think the above is a very likely scenario for people that look to get into staking. Aside from that, BsB doesn't have his blog around anymore so that people see what he does.

      And if you think about it, why would declining the suggestion hurt BsB reputation when the guy who made the suggestion, myself, has only the best to say about BsB?


      Could be viewed many ways: One obvious way is you state something negative/damaging to him like the suggestion you made. (I don't think it was your intention but it can definitely come across like that). That makes you feel bad and doesn't comply with the idea that you are a nice person and wouldn't hurt anyone that didn'd hurt you (BsB) therefore you have to compensate by always stating how cool he is.

      Most likely your request didn't come through as you intended it though but that's fine.

      @BsB vs Pleno: I only read a bit through the threads and I think both could have handle things better. They are both good guys, did good things for the community, it's probably just variance that they got into an argument. The main reason I post here is that it's common not only in staking but in general for the people that seem to have a losing investment to try to minimize losses only looking at themselves, forgetting about all the parties involved.

      Just to take a simple example from business:2 people start company. One is broke but has all the knowledge and connections to make it happen, one is the investor. Investor ships $10 mil for 50% of the company. When the company goes down, the investor sues his partner who didn't contribute any money for not making him richer and argues that he should have % of all the future endeavours of the broke manager.
    • maritsula
      maritsula
      Silver
      Joined: 19.12.2011 Posts: 905
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      I know about make-up and I think it's definitely a good thing but once it is not included in the initial agreement, you should discuss it in private if you want it to not affect reputation of either.

      I know you didn't have any bad intentions but I am very certain it will damage BsB's reputation because he omitted something that now you say is standard and will drive away people new to staking after they read this.

      Staker:'Oh Black Member asking for a stake, cool! I can make some $$. [reads feedback and rail threads]. Wait so stakers think he doesn't offer a standard deal but makes it more in his favour. Idk, I should prob not get involved, who knows what else I am missing here.'
      As I said before, in hindsight it would have been better to discuss this private to avoid this "over reaction" by some people.

      A generally accepted practise, in this case makeup, is translated to "it goes without saying". The principle of GAP is recognised in the UK contract law which is based on the common law system. So in speaking in legal terms, if this was a legal case, this term might have been recognised by the courts as a term of the contract regardless the fact that it was not explicitly stated as it is a generally accepted practise in the staking business.

      Personally, I think its wrong and unfair to have this term implemented as it was not explicitly stated in the deal even though its a GAP. As I said before, this ommitance is the stakers fault and not the stakee. I am certain that the stakee was ignorant of this term and did not exclude it on purpose to favour himself.

      So since it was the stakers fault I cant see how it will affect the stakee's reputation...

      Originally posted by EmanuelC16

      And if you think about it, why would declining the suggestion hurt BsB reputation when the guy who made the suggestion, myself, has only the best to say about BsB?


      Could be viewed many ways: One obvious way is you state something negative/damaging to him like the suggestion you made. (I don't think it was your intention but it can definitely come across like that). That makes you feel bad and doesn't comply with the idea that you are a nice person and wouldn't hurt anyone that didn'd hurt you (BsB) therefore you have to compensate by always stating how cool he is.
      As I have explained in depth the reasons on why I do not believe that my suggestion will not affect the stakee's reputation (or was negative), in my humble opinion your argument is not valid. It does saddens me that people jumped to quick conclusions and even went to the extent to describe me as greedy, unfair and "crybaby" but what can we do right? This is just human nature I am afraid. An attempt to praise the party I was perceived to insult/damage is certainly not a solution to this fundamental problem of human nature :)

      So to answer to your explanation, no I would not say/do something I do not believe/want just to improve my "image" or perception. And please refer to my second post where I explained my main reason for getting involved in the stake in the first place.

      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Most likely your request didn't come through as you intended it though but that's fine.
      Thats most probably true. Its funny though that after a few days and many replies, only one guy replied to my suggestion who represents 2% of the stake. If other stakers don't show an interest in the coming days then I am afraid that this comes down to the problems of dispersed ownership and there is nothing I can really do but shy away of stakes where there many stakers who have a non-significant %.

      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      @BsB vs Pleno: I only read a bit through the threads and I think both could have handle things better. They are both good guys, did good things for the community, it's probably just variance that they got into an argument. The main reason I post here is that it's common not only in staking but in general for the people that seem to have a losing investment to try to minimize losses only looking at themselves, forgetting about all the parties involved.
      I don't want to comment on the substance of the argument. What i want to say is that the timing of my suggestion is very unfortunate for obvious reasons.

      About people tending to try to minimize losses, is should be true as its human nature. However, I was very clear about my reasoning.

      This is the only reason why I am making the suggestion. Not because I can't take the loss from the stake but because it should have been included from the beginning.


      We discussed the problems of staking over skype a while ago and if am not mistaken we both agreed that the fundamental problem revolves around the stakees + stakers not full understanding the terms of a stake which results to -ev stakes. A good example of this concept can be found on the variancekiller's feedback thread. Also, just this morning I pm'd a reputable member of this community to warn him about not getting involved in a -ev stake.

      About your business example, I believe that its not relevant to this issue. Briefly, in you example the resources that each party would bring to this project were clearly defined from the beginning and in the business world its certainly not a generally accepted practise for the person who is responsible for the expertise etc to be asked to cover part of the losses... I am more than happy to expand on this further if you want.

      I really appreciate your effort to help with the discussion and I hope that you are not put-off by my direct answers.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Np, hope Hai runs better last few hands and then you guys see what you do.

      Yep, I remember talking about staking applications on Skype a few months ago.

      Nothing else to add, I think we both got our point across to each other. Hope people reading it also got it.
    • maritsula
      maritsula
      Silver
      Joined: 19.12.2011 Posts: 905
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Np, hope Hai runs better last few hands and then you guys see what you do.

      Yep, I remember talking about staking applications on Skype a few months ago.

      Nothing else to add, I think we both got our point across to each other. Hope people reading it also got it.
      :f_thumbsup:

      One last remark that I forgot to mention in my previous reply. My suggestion was supposed to benefit both parties as stakers would b/e and Hai would increase his chances of getting the long-term stake he just applied for. So its more of a win/win situation than anything else :spade:
    • BrokesoBroke
      BrokesoBroke
      Black
      Joined: 23.10.2007 Posts: 889
      100k hands have been finished.

      I will make it simpler so you guys don't have to argue about it. I won't be playing on stake any further. If you think it is bad, then do appoint me as the "bad guy". I have tried really hard in this stake.

      In fact the last session I played today was probably the best session ever for me.

      Had a $3k upswing for you guys. Just be happy with what I tried giving back. :) Whether you decide to stake me on future stakings or not, you can decide then.

      If you want me to continue, I'd be more than glad to but only on 500NL.

      Overall Stake:




      Graph in terms of bb:



      Graph in terms of winnings:



      4,421 hands @ 500NL -$8,523.37 Lost and EV is -$4,683.87
      95,584 hands @ 200NL - $1,767.73 Lost and EV is +$6356.10

      Overall we have an EV adjusted overall winnings of +$1,672.10

      Please do understand that I did run almost 50BI below EV and it was really tough to grind through it.

      -$10,291.10 lost
      $10.938.93 Rake Paid
      $4,703.74 Rakeback (I'm using the tier that I had last year even though I didn't clear any milestones from this stake. I should be using 41% but I'm going to use 43% as RB)

      Total lost is:

      -$5,587.36

      Stake Money is : $19,412.64

      Each 1% is equivalent to $194.126399

      Please correct me if I'm wrong. I will start sending out payments once I get you guys to look over this.

      Thanks again for stake me. I'm upset that I wasn't able to make money and not able to grind @ 500NL for a longer period of time.

      Have a great year!

      BrokeSoBroke
    • iownw69
      iownw69
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2010 Posts: 78
      Only 20% lost while running 50BI under EV is not that bad at all!

      ty and gl in the future
    • maritsula
      maritsula
      Silver
      Joined: 19.12.2011 Posts: 905
      As I said in my initial post, whatever you decide I will respect that. So Happy New Year to you too, thank you for trying your best and best of luck with crushing 2014 :f_thumbsup:
    • BrokesoBroke
      BrokesoBroke
      Black
      Joined: 23.10.2007 Posts: 889
      Please contact me for return of money. TY!
    • iownw69
      iownw69
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2010 Posts: 78
      received it, ty
    • BrokesoBroke
      BrokesoBroke
      Black
      Joined: 23.10.2007 Posts: 889
      Thank you all for the Rail and the Stake!

      Wishing you all the best in 2014!

      BrokeSoBroke