This site uses cookies to improve your browsing experience. By continuing to browse the website, you accept such cookies. For more details and to change your settings, see our Cookie Policy and Privacy Policy. Close

3betting or calling in the blinds PF?

    • Monkeye
      Joined: 14.07.2009 Posts: 1,201
      This is always a hard decission for me hands like KQ AJ. In the dutch forum handjudges like 3betting it.

      Another very good coach on a famous pokerforum say you must calling this hands because you get more value (or maybe stack him) when you hit KQ and hit toppair vs something like KT. I changed my game because I thought this player had a very good argument. The only problem that I found is that 2/3 of the time I didn't hit the flop and I had to fold when he cbetted.

      Today I watched a video from Fongie on NL50. And he liked 3betting thes hands.

      At the moment I am trying to find out which style is the most +EV/
  • 6 replies
    • yeahyoung0312
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Both judges had a point.

      I think when judges say they like to flat those hands, they imply that they can 3bet bluff/semi bluff with suited connectors and mini pairs.

      3bet itself is a profitable move so keeping a certain 3-bet range is good for your image and your game. It is just a matter of what your range consists. Some 3-bet with a polarized range and flat hands between, some 3-bet with top range only and flat other hands.

      Also if you feel there is no implied odds, due to the looseness of villain, then you should definitely 3-bet OOP. If the opponent is a NIT then you should consider flat AQ/AJ, fold KQ, and re-evaluate flop.
    • Hopey
      Joined: 05.03.2010 Posts: 193
      It depends on the opponent. If you are playing a LAGy player calling is probably best. As with something like KQ you dominate a large portion of his range (a lot of players will raise things like any suited K on the BU- especially SH). Consequently in this situation you will find yourself playing with TPGK v TPWK held by the oponent, if they are loose enough to raise something like K3s chances are they will fire at least 2 barrells trying to make you lay your hand down/value bet theirs.

      Some people are tighter and don't raise with such a wide range. A 3bet v these players has a lot of equity as they fold playable hands. Also if they open raise from the BU with 56s and the flop is AQ9 you aren't going to get a lot out of them if you do hit due to them being tight.

      IMO (heavily influence by Tri Nguyen's Poker Blueprin- buy it NOW!) a lot of what you do depends on how players play post flop. If you think they will put money in with weak/medium hands, try calling. If they are a nit 3bet them.
    • Volrath89
      Joined: 23.07.2008 Posts: 2,171
      As everything in poker: it depends. You should not play them in the same way in every situation...

      But vs. a big part of the regs nowadays in the micros who steal a lot but still fold a lot to 3bets I DON'T like 3-betting. The reason is that, well for every bet you make in poker you should make the same question: Which better hands fold? and Which worse hands call?.

      So, for example with KQ if you 3 bet, the standard ABC reg is going to 4bet with QQ+, AK sometimes AQ, so you are not making better hands to fold. And I find v. unlikely that they flat your 3bet with hands like KJ, KT, QJ, etc... so basically you turn your KQ into a bluff. Against this kind of regs I prefer calling KQ and 3 betting with Ax and SC. Also you can't play fit or fold when you cold call, you should make some moves in good boards vs the appropiate villain because they have a very wide range and are unlikely to hit many boards. You could c/raise the flop, or float OOP...

      There is the other kind of villain who steals a lot but also flats 3 bet IP too loose. Vs. them ofc you can't 3bet bluff too much since they are not folding, so you can 3bet them with KQ, AJ for value.

      It's also OK to fold them if the player who is opening is either too nit even in late (not so much regs like this anymore) or you consider too hard to play postflop OOP...
    • yeahyoung0312
      Joined: 16.12.2009 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by Volrath89
      But vs. a big part of the regs nowadays in the micros who steal a lot but still fold a lot to 3bets I DON'T like 3-betting. The reason is that, well for every bet you make in poker you should make the same question: Which better hands fold? and Which worse hands call?.
      You mean that you don't like 3-betting with KQ/AJ, right? I guess you would 3-bet with suited A and SC?
    • SiXAT
      Joined: 28.09.2008 Posts: 263
      HU or if you have a 3bet monkey image then its good to 3bet QK cause he is not going to fold QT+KT+ and many other hands that are underdogs preflop.
      If your image is a good regular who 3bets mostly valid hands when KQ is a call.
      Plus notice when you 3bet ppl there are these fish who call your 3bet with AA with hands like TJ AT KJ etc oop(ip might be good once in while not to be too weak) so i start 3beting wider for value.
    • JonikoP
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 600
      Good thread - agree with the guys above.

      Be interested to hear what people think of the following as general guidelines for playing out of the blinds in the micros (put together from a few sources). Obviously very dynamic depending on how people are playing, particularly CO/BTN:

      Vs. UTG/MP Open

      Value 3-bet range:
      Opener is TAG: QQ+ and AK
      Opener is nit: KK+
      Opener is LAG: JJ+, AQ+

      Flat call: Deep stacked against a player who you think will play for stacks with an overpair or TPTK call all pocket pairs. Suited connectors are an easy fold as they play badly out of position against an aggro player.

      Vs. CO Open

      Opener is TAG: QQ+, AQ+, AJs+ and KQs.
      Opener had a high fold to 3-bet: add bluffs with suited connectors/Ax suited.
      Opener is often calling 3-bets too wide: add AJ/KQ as you will often dominate his calling range. Flat call with dominating hands (see below).
      Flat call: Deep stacked add some mid-pocket pairs, 88+ but you don’t really have the implied odds against his range to play these profitably OOP. If villain is folding to 3-bets a high percentage of the time you can call with hands that will have him dominated (e.g. flat calling AQ – you are not betting it for value if he will fold all dominated hands and only continue with QQ+ and AK.)

      Vs. Button

      Opener is TAG: 99+, AJ+, ATs+, KQs+
      As above, if opener is folding to 3-bets too often you can 3-bet ATC profitably but ideally hands like Axs work well as they have blockers to hands which dominate you.
      Flat Call: As for CO.