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ak monster or kitten??

    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      • 01.02.2011, 15:33
      • This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by roopopper: 01.02.2011 15:37.
      Just trying to get my head into playing short stack full ring strategy games and been checking out the equilator thingy, it tells me ak would lose to most pairs most of the time? Why then have I been raising and calling all in with it? I just got beat to a pair of tens( fair enough!) but I always thought Ak was in the monster catagorie??
      I have generally always pushed ak but is this not really the right thing to do?
      If it shows less than a 50% chance of winning in the long term it is going to cost me money?
      I raised with it then was pushed all in by the other guy who had the tens.

      Roo
  • 26 replies
    • scscpoker
      scscpoker
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.06.2010 Posts: 121
      • 01.02.2011, 15:40
      • This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by scscpoker: 01.02.2011 15:41.
      You have coinflip (45:55) against all pocket pairs, but u are dominating all mediocre hands like AT, AJ, AQ, KQ, KJ, KT... U have also like 60:40 against all other hands like 56 9T QJ...
    • Tampaloeres81
      Tampaloeres81
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.03.2009 Posts: 1,416
      Hi,

      Because you have already invested money in the pot, you need less than 50% EQ to call the AI. So calling has a higher EV than folding AK vs PP's.

      T.
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by scscpoker
      You have coinflip (45:55) against all pocket pairs, but u are dominating all mediocre hands like AT, AJ, AQ, KQ, KJ, KT... U have also like 60:40 against all other hands like 56 9T QJ...
      Thanks!! This makes sense!!! :P
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by Tampaloeres81
      Hi,

      Because you have already invested money in the pot, you need less than 50% EQ to call the AI. So calling has a higher EV than folding AK vs PP's.

      T.
      This is too advanced for me to understand :P Looking forward to chatting to you again in a couple of years when I get my poker degree lol !! :P
    • Fakom300
      Fakom300
      Basic
      Joined: 02.02.2011 Posts: 1
      AK like Ana Kurnikova :} very beautiful, but never wins..
    • Bliausmas
      Bliausmas
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 741
      Originally posted by Fakom300
      AK like Ana Kurnikova :} very beautiful, but never wins..
      Haha good one, I agree with that :f_biggrin:
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by Fakom300
      AK like Ana Kurnikova :} very beautiful, but never wins..
      Or jack.... king off :P
    • BadeaCelRau
      BadeaCelRau
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.10.2010 Posts: 2,122
      • 04.02.2011, 22:53
      • This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by BadeaCelRau: 04.02.2011 22:54.
      When you raise first AK for 4BB and then get reraised you have to complete 16BB more (20-4 from the raise) into a total pot of 4 + 20(your opponent's stack) + 16 you are about to complete = 40BB. 16BB out of 40BB is about 40% but you have a winning chance of 45%. That's the first rule (of pot odds) every poker player learns, nothing fancy here. It's profitable to call in a situation where you have to pay less than your winning chance.

      In the second case where you go allin after someone raises first there's a good chance they will either fold or call a dominated hand.

      This SSS is pure mathematics :s_cool:
    • AlCaTrAzzALZ
      AlCaTrAzzALZ
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.05.2008 Posts: 726
      u should never play AK with SSS, it's too weak, you'll always run into AA


      /sarcasm
    • Bliausmas
      Bliausmas
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 741
      Yeah, 72o has better chances against AA than AK, therefore you should play 72o as AK, and fold the actual AK everytime.
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by Bliausmas
      Yeah, 72o has better chances against AA than AK, therefore you should play 72o as AK, and fold the actual AK everytime.
      This is beer talk surely!!!! I know im probably over posting on this thread but ....................its friday night and .......... :P
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by BadeaCelRau
      When you raise first AK for 4BB and then get reraised you have to complete 16BB more (20-4 from the raise) into a total pot of 4 + 20(your opponent's stack) + 16 you are about to complete = 40BB. 16BB out of 40BB is about 40% but you have a winning chance of 45%. That's the first rule (of pot odds) every poker player learns, nothing fancy here. It's profitable to call in a situation where you have to pay less than your winning chance.

      In the second case where you go allin after someone raises first there's a good chance they will either fold or call a dominated hand.

      This SSS is pure mathematics :s_cool:
      could you point me in the right direction to learn this kind of maths...please!!! :P
    • Bigniux
      Bigniux
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.01.2009 Posts: 2,098
      No-limit Short Stack Strategy
    • JHTAN
      JHTAN
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.07.2010 Posts: 1,343
      Originally posted by Tampaloeres81
      Hi,

      Because you have already invested money in the pot, you need less than 50% EQ to call the AI. So calling has a higher EV than folding AK vs PP's.

      T.
      Hi T, :)

      If you know the villain only raise with PPs. Do you reraise with AK if you are not in the blinds position?
    • biogas
      biogas
      Silver
      Joined: 22.07.2010 Posts: 413
      Originally posted by BadeaCelRau
      When you raise first AK for 4BB and then get reraised you have to complete 16BB more (20-4 from the raise) into a total pot of 4 + 20(your opponent's stack) + 16 you are about to complete = 40BB. 16BB out of 40BB is about 40% but you have a winning chance of 45%. That's the first rule (of pot odds) every poker player learns, nothing fancy here. It's profitable to call in a situation where you have to pay less than your winning chance..

      This SSS is pure mathematics :s_cool:
      Actually this may look correct in at a first glance. In a real life call a 3bet with AK is EV-. Problem is that your chances to win against PP is 45% on the river. But if you call a 3bet you get only 30% of floping A or K. And if u miss u will never get odds to see another street and to catch up to theoretical 45%.

      Also in a real life if you are on EP or MP and playing against solid player you will get 3bet mostly with QQ+ and AK. Thus only with QQ gives 45-55 (for the river, and 30-70 for flop). Also if you flop A or K its quite likely that u wont get more than a cbet from QQ and that's it.
      Calling KK or AA thats totally EV-.
      Calling AK is also EV-, because most likely u get a split and than rake will make it EV- (for tournyes thats EV0).

      So basically calling with AK a 3bet is EV-. While 4bet/push gives you 45-55, and thats also EV-.

      The only line I see EV+ is calling an open raise and play for "domination" value.

      Please prove me wrong so I can still play AK :) .
    • MeanGreen
      MeanGreen
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      Joined: 20.09.2007 Posts: 862
      Foldequity, deadmoney, chance to hit straights or flushes?
    • Tampaloeres81
      Tampaloeres81
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      Joined: 08.03.2009 Posts: 1,416
      • 24.02.2011, 16:17
      • This post has been edited 3 time(s), it was last edited by Tampaloeres81: 24.02.2011 16:22.


      So basically calling with AK a 3bet is EV-.
      Hi,

      This is true against solid players ie strong 3bet range.
      BUT: it is less EV- to OR/AI with AK then to OR/fold since you've already invested money ;)

      Still no reason to not play AK at all. Often you will pickup the blinds or get called by a weaker hand etc.

      In my 200k + hands AK is one of my biggest winners, so dont wory ;)

      T.
    • biogas
      biogas
      Silver
      Joined: 22.07.2010 Posts: 413
      Originally posted by MeanGreen
      Foldequity, deadmoney, chance to hit straights or flushes?
      Foldequity and deadmoney is worth targeting at mid/late tourney stages and maybe higher cash game levels (dunno about that, never been there). Cannot agree with that more. But stealing blinds on micros doesn't seem to bring fortune.

      And when it comes to straights and flushes than any (un)suited connectors can do that (even better: they have more outs on a straight draw), but for some reason (maybe it has somethoing to do with EV) these are not the hands for opening in EP or MP in SSS or MSS.

      All in all I suggest the best line for AK (on micro level ring games, FR) is the same as small PP or SC's: call IP, go for domination.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      If you don't play AK strongly, you will be leaving a lot of money on the table. You will also blind off waiting for better hands.

      When you have AK, you do not need to rely on fold equity. You have a strong hand which does well against both loose and tight ranges. Most of the time, none of your opponents has a pair. Stop assuming your opponents always have pairs and always know you have AK.

      The range of hands you put your opponents on when you have 88 should not be radically different from the range of hands you give them when you have AK. There are some card-removal effects, but if you think 88 is just going to be a coin-flip against hands like KJ, you need to include KJ in your opponent's range when you have AK.

      If you are losing money with AK over a large enough sample, you are almost certainly doing something wrong.
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