Ah Qh on button rush NL100

  • 16 replies
    • JonikoP
      JonikoP
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      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 600
      Ok, I'll give this a go as nobody else has - tell me if I'm way off Ribbo!

      I think there are arguments for both:

      Flatting: Keeps worse/dominated hands in. You can probably get one or two streets of value from a worse Axs on an A high board if you flat here. You also have position post flop and it would suck to get 4-bet in this spot.

      3-Betting: You might get called by worse hands (e.g. AJ, KQ) although without reads its hard to know for sure. Three betting helps to develop an aggressive image (although this is probably less important playing rush) and you will have initiative so can often take down the pot post-flop with a c-bet.

      There is an argument that you would isolate yourself against the top of his range with a 3-bet although given that this is CO v BTN he might call/4-bet lighter.

      On balance, I'm probably just flatting here to play poker in position post-flop.
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
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      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Do you find rush poker players are more nitty preflop because they can just fold marginal hands and be dealt another one instantly? Would this persuade you that either 1: his cutoff raise is tighter therefore 3 betting is bad or 2: he is more likely to fold to a 3 bet and let you take it down.
    • Putka66
      Putka66
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      Joined: 27.11.2009 Posts: 16
      It also matters if is SH or FR and you should give us that info :)
    • ihufa
      ihufa
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      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      3bet and it's not even close, if you're not 3betting AQs then how else can you keep up a decent 3bet% from BU vs CO
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
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      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Originally posted by Putka66
      It also matters if is SH or FR and you should give us that info :)
      Though it shouldn't matter when it's folded to the CO as your strategy should be the same in both SH and FR when 3 betting from the button.
      I understand the argument that a 6 max player will be opening lighter from the same position as a FR guy however.

      It is Full Ring.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      This thread is here because Ribbo and I disagree on this particular spot in my rush poker video. Of course whatever JonikoP and ihufa said is very true.

      But because this is FR (nit mentality of players) and Rush (hardly any metagame especially when I played NL100 Rush FR for the first time), I really think:

      1) No need to balance bluff range by 3betting AQs in the beginning (I think it's fine and maybe even necessary if you are playing against the same few guys who are aware of your wide BU 3betting ranges and are responding appropriately by widening 4-betting ranges)
      2) It will isolate us vs a stronger range (because seriously who 4bets/calls with 88-TT CO vs BU without a crazy preflop dynamic? I think we will get crushed by JJ+/AK)
      3) We just fold out too many worse hands (i would assume unless I had a read that he calls 3bets OOP with AT/AJ/KQ)

      Conclusion: I think calling is more +EV in a vacuum when we assume that people are stacking off with JJ+/AK and not calling 3bets with too many worse hands OOP. Of course in the long-run against multi-tabling regs who have HUDs to track you down, rush poker becomes very similar to normal poker (in terms of metagame)
    • thazar
      thazar
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      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      on Rush I believe calling is a mistake. You have a lot of people however nitty that steal from CO and BU so if it is an open raise 3 bet easy from BU. AQ is quite hard to play post flop without any info. I think it is even better to fold AQ than to call even in position without any info.
    • ZhiCheng
      ZhiCheng
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      Joined: 04.10.2008 Posts: 2,294
      Flat.. and its not even close :s_cool:

      but.. i hate the idea of nl100rush video being produced here.. so.. I d prefer if Ribbo hated it a lot and not let it out :f_biggrin:
    • ZhiCheng
      ZhiCheng
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      Joined: 04.10.2008 Posts: 2,294
      oh fml.. its out
    • thazar
      thazar
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      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      Originally posted by GooRukYONG
      Flat.. and its not even close :s_cool:

      but.. i hate the idea of nl100rush video being produced here.. so.. I d prefer if Ribbo hated it a lot and not let it out :f_biggrin:
      Originally posted by Ribbo


      3 bet preflop or call? Give reasons. :f_biggrin:
      reasons?
    • ZhiCheng
      ZhiCheng
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      Joined: 04.10.2008 Posts: 2,294
      noone ever goes broke with AJ, turning AQs into bluff is sucha a waste imo.. not many ppl call 3bets oop, pureownage of worse Ax and Qx postflop, pureownage of worse fdraws postflop, pure ownage IP vs wide range
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      Originally posted by thazar
      on Rush I believe calling is a mistake. You have a lot of people however nitty that steal from CO and BU so if it is an open raise 3 bet easy from BU. AQ is quite hard to play post flop without any info. I think it is even better to fold AQ than to call even in position without any info.
      well I strongly disagree with this.

      basically you are advocating 3betting because...
      -villain opens wide (which is valid)
      -hard to play postflop without any info (which is very bad)

      If we have minimal info, why should we 3bet? If we are faced with a 4bet, are you really comfortable 5bet jamming AQs? Or do you want to waste a valuable hand such as AQs by 3bet/folding? Calling keeps his range as wide as possible.

      And if you are actually considering folding AQs BU vs CO, then you might as well fold 100% of your hands in this spot because AQs is at the very top of your calling range.
    • ihufa
      ihufa
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      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      lol if you don't want to call AQs (instead of folding) on the button vs an unknown CO then... I don't know.. that just completely blows my mind
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Min3bet ftw :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin:

      Nah, but flat > 3bet AINEC vs 100bb guy readless.
    • ihufa
      ihufa
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      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      i changed my mind, in rush i'd flat... but who plays that anyways... :f_biggrin:
    • thazar
      thazar
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      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      lol I'm a big :f_biggrin: