The Brutal Truth

    • wasy8
      wasy8
      Black
      Joined: 29.01.2009 Posts: 1,507
      I found this article in my email inbox today from the p5s forum and I think it's pretty important to share with certain posters in this forum.

      I was in the nightly PokerStars $10+1 $12k guaranteed tournament recently when I found my favorite kind of player. Well, “favorite” might not be the right word. “Intriguing” might be closer – someone worth talking about and analyzing.

      Very early in the tournament, another player called Mr. Intriguing’s bets on the flop and turn with Ace-high, and spiked the river to crack a previously top pair and win a large pot. In standard online style, Mr. Intriguing went off about “donk” this and “idiot” that for a number of hands before getting into the real “woe is me” stuff:

      “they f me and f me and f me”
      “and they feed morons”
      “it’s how they stay open”
      “feed the nightmares and the real players tilt”

      “Real players?” What is a “real player” anyway? OPR says Mr. Intriguing has played over 2500 tournaments on Stars, ABI of $24, -41% ROI. By my math, he’s lost almost $26,000 playing MTTs. If that is a “real player,” I should prefer to be “fake” and keep my money closer to my wallet.

      After playing so many tournaments and losing that consistently, and still having a high opinion of what he’s doing as a player, he must have some leaks so ingrained that he can no longer see them as problems. Sure enough, before he was done with the initial volley of complaints, one of them generated more fuel for his fire:

      ---

      Seat 1: Player A (1797 in chips)
      Seat 2: Player B (2260 in chips)
      Seat 3: Player C (1370 in chips)
      Seat 4: Player D (1625 in chips)
      Seat 5: grapsfan (5950 in chips)
      Seat 6: Player E (4210 in chips)
      Seat 7: Player F (2925 in chips)
      Seat 8: Player G (5157 in chips)
      Seat 9: Mr. Intriguing (2074 in chips)
      Mr. Intriguing: posts small blind 25
      Player A: posts big blind 50
      *** HOLE CARDS ***
      Dealt to grapsfan [5s Kh]
      Player B: folds
      Player C: folds
      Player D: raises 200 to 250
      grapsfan: folds
      Player E: folds
      Player F: folds
      Player G: calls 250
      Mr. Intriguing: calls 225
      Player A: folds
      *** FLOP *** [4c Th 7s]
      Mr. Intriguing: checks
      Player D: bets 400
      Player G: folds
      Mr. Intriguing: raises 1424 to 1824 and is all-in
      Player D: calls 975 and is all-in
      Uncalled bet (449) returned to Mr. Intriguing
      *** TURN *** [4c Th 7s] [Jc]
      *** RIVER *** [4c Th 7s Jc] [Qd]
      *** SHOW DOWN ***
      Mr. Intriguing: shows [Td 7d] (two pair, Tens and Sevens)
      Player D: shows [Ah Ks] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
      Player D collected 3550 from pot

      ---

      The size of his raise in relation to his stack (he’s only got 8x the raise), plus being out-of-position, means he should fold a suited 2-gap hand. He will not flop perfectly – two pair or better, plus great draws – often enough to support the implied odds he’s getting on the call. Focusing how good the flop was, how bad Player D’s flop play was, and how unlucky the turn and river were…all of that hides the leak. Mr. Intriguing shouldn’t have been playing that hand in the first place.

      We all have leaks preventing us from being the best we can be. The only way to fix them and improve is to ignore whatever we think we know about the game, and our results in it, and focus on what’s true. Use unsparing, unflinching honesty. That's the brutal truth.

      I’ve had winning results in SNGs on every site I’ve played, and MTTs on every site I’ve played other than PokerStars. The size of the fields and the relative small sample size in my Stars history mean my data is still relatively fluctuating. Winning a couple key flips here and there, and I’d be well into the positive…we all would.

      It would also be easy for me to blame my negative results on running bad. I certainly have hand histories to support a theory that nobody runs worse than me. That’s not true, though. We all have those hand histories. Playing too tight, and not giving yourself a chance to catch a draw or a well-hidden flop, always waiting for the nuts and never letting luck balance itself out…that’s a leak, not a virtue, in today’s world of poker tournaments.

      Playing bet- and stack-sizes poorly is a leak as well. I play a short stack well, probably because of my experience in SNGs. And I can find good spots early in tournaments, making adjustments to what the table gives me. However, I consistently spew away big stacks early, and have trouble making the right table adjustments in the 30-50 BB range when the average stacks are shrinking in the middle of a tournament. Knowing what to do in the beginning and end, but not the middle, is another leak.

      Blaming your losses on the site being rigged…well, that’s a leak too. This is probably Mr. Intriguing’s largest leak – worse than playing T7s to a 5x raise out-of-position, worse than remaining on tilt from a bad beat long after the next hands are dealt, worse than all of the other problems he must have to show such a long history of negative results. From the time of his beat above to his elimination, we were all treated to a steady stream of:

      "like i said they screw the real players all day"
      "its their way of keeping idiots with no clue believing they can play so they stay all day long and keep feeding the rakes"
      "do you get phuked like that 1/2 the time?"
      "you see you players see so many bad beats (UNLIKE REAL GAMES) that you enjoy seeing other players get screwed and you expect it it is so sad"

      At certain points in his monologue, I asked repeatedly, “If you think it’s rigged, why do you play here at PokerStars?” He never answered. He wasn’t as interested in thinking up an answer to my question as he was in complaining. After all, complaining is easier than facing logical inquiry. If the site truly is rigged against you, the “real player”, but you can’t stop playing anyway…that’s the worst possible leak.

      But if he quit, then he’d have nothing to complain about. He’d lose the ability to think of himself as a “real player.” If you’re not strong enough, keeping your excuse for losing is worth suffering the losses themselves. And that’s the brutal truth.


      Here's the basic facts: no one plays real money poker expecting to lose as a result of their own ability. No one plays thinking "Everyone is better than me here and I'm going to lose". However variance allows players to think they're better than they are, and that's why we have fish in poker. Ego keeps players in the game - people who continually deposit over and over again do so because they think "these donkeys can't keep fucking me over every time" and severely overestimate their own ability. grapsfan summed it up pretty nicely - if losing players like these are "real players", then I much prefer being a fake player and making money.

      People here are willing to help you if you have an OPEN MIND to criticism. Just because you saw something on TV at the WSOP 4 years ago that worked doesn't mean it is the right play in a microstakes cash game. In fact, never try to learn from poker on TV for one big reason: you're not ready to think on the level that the pros do, and when you can't hear their thoughts behind each action, it's completely useless to you.

      When people like me, NightFrostASS, ihufa and other diamonds troll you on this forum and respond sarcastically all the time, it's because we see the same shit over and over from fish. Responding the same way to every stupid question is boring and redundant for us when you're too lazy to look back at old threads. Read old threads before you ask a question, since chances are its already been answered. There is a search function at the bottom left of each forum page, put it to good use.

      We all have leaks. Put your ego aside and listen to the experienced players on this forum because many of them are willing to help you if you're willing to put in the work too.
  • 44 replies
    • Reanimater
      Reanimater
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 148
      what's your personal gain from posting this?

      why not just sit back and laugh while the same guys keep on depositing and making mistakes?

      poker is a predatory game played for individuals and the idea of helping/coaching others is simply beyond me.

      if i was a good player i would not share any knowledge with others.
    • ihufa
      ihufa
      Gold
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      maybe helping others gives some people joy... i don't know
    • pogodon
      pogodon
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2010 Posts: 1,210
      Originally posted by wasy8
      I found this article in my email inbox today from the p5s forum and I think it's pretty important to share with certain posters in this forum.

      The Brutal Truth

      Here's the basic facts: no one plays real money poker expecting to lose as a result of their own ability. No one plays thinking "Everyone is better than me here and I'm going to lose". However variance allows players to think they're better than they are, and that's why we have fish in poker. Ego keeps players in the game - people who continually deposit over and over again do so because they think "these donkeys can't keep fucking me over every time" and severely overestimate their own ability. grapsfan summed it up pretty nicely - if losing players like these are "real players", then I much prefer being a fake player and making money.

      People here are willing to help you if you have an OPEN MIND to criticism. Just because you saw something on TV at the WSOP 4 years ago that worked doesn't mean it is the right play in a microstakes cash game. In fact, never try to learn from poker on TV for one big reason: you're not ready to think on the level that the pros do, and when you can't hear their thoughts behind each action, it's completely useless to you.

      When people like me, NightFrostASS, ihufa and other diamonds troll you on this forum and respond sarcastically all the time, it's because we see the same shit over and over from fish. Responding the same way to every stupid question is boring and redundant for us when you're too lazy to look back at old threads. Read old threads before you ask a question, since chances are its already been answered. There is a search function at the bottom left of each forum page, put it to good use.

      We all have leaks. Put your ego aside and listen to the experienced players on this forum because many of them are willing to help you if you're willing to put in the work too.
      good post
    • wasy8
      wasy8
      Black
      Joined: 29.01.2009 Posts: 1,507
      Originally posted by Reanimater
      what's your personal gain from posting this?

      why not just sit back and laugh while the same guys keep on depositing and making mistakes?

      poker is a predatory game played for individuals and the idea of helping/coaching others is simply beyond me.

      if i was a good player i would not share any knowledge with others.
      well this is a poker forum, where the purpose is for all of us to get better. the chances of people in this forum playing against me is pretty slim. the player pool at micro through midstakes is still pretty large, and helping people here is not going to have a direct impact on my results.

      i think i'm just getting really tired of all the redundant and idiotic posts and hoping that this will help people contribute better to this forum.
    • Reanimater
      Reanimater
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 148
      what you say makes sense ; )

      of course i enjoy helping too, when i can : D

      i do agree with you on the main topic. the matter of the fact is that all of the 'means' for any player to get better are available - you can search the forums, watch videos, ask for meaningful advice and so on.

      the right mentality in "getting" better is when you really analyze your faults and try hard.

      i've learned this from gaming - if you want to be good at something you gotta dedicate a lot of time, watch how opponents play, get advice and so on.

      i wish good luck to everyone :)
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by wasy8
      Responding the same way to every stupid question is boring and redundant for us when you're too lazy to look back at old threads. Read old threads before you ask a question, since chances are its already been answered. There is a search function at the bottom left of each forum page, put it to good use.
      Reading my mind, man
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      of course i enjoy helping too, when i can : D


      Yes but you shouldn't enjoy helping someone to get your money.
    • wasy8
      wasy8
      Black
      Joined: 29.01.2009 Posts: 1,507
      I edited the OP to take out the link to the site in question and just quote the article.

      andreibalint - its unlikely you will have to play many of the people in this community in your games, and more than likely, they will not be your target player at the tables so you shouldnt have to worry.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      If you don't have to play them in your games doesn't mean that they don't affect your bottom line negatively (even if veeeeeeery insignificantly).

      Not saying that helping people is bad or anything since it gives you some kind of satisfaction or w/e.
    • wasy8
      wasy8
      Black
      Joined: 29.01.2009 Posts: 1,507
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      If you don't have to play them in your games doesn't mean that they don't affect your bottom line negatively (even if veeeeeeery insignificantly).

      Not saying that helping people is bad or anything since it gives you some kind of satisfaction or w/e.
      agreed, its very insignificant. regardless, this information has been available at places like 2p2 for quite some time anyway.
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Hahaownedlolz
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      Originally posted by wasy8
      Responding the same way to every stupid question is boring and redundant for us when you're too lazy to look back at old threads. Read old threads before you ask a question, since chances are its already been answered. There is a search function at the bottom left of each forum page, put it to good use.
      Reading my mind, man
      +1 Yet somehow i still bother trying to help that fish who luckboxes a tournament then plays way outside his usual limit and ends the day with a huge win.

      I'm not a good player.. But i've read the same shit so many times it really does get boring to answer it.. I've experienced it at other forums too.. every few weeks/months you will see the same type of thread/question.

      Need to stop posting serious and start trolling :D
    • hackbinder
      hackbinder
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2009 Posts: 618
      [QUOTE]
      When people like me, NightFrostASS, ihufa and other diamonds troll you on this forum and respond sarcastically all the time, it's because we see the same shit over and over from fish. Responding the same way to every stupid question is boring and redundant for us when you're too lazy to look back at old threads. Read old threads before you ask a question, since chances are its already been answered. There is a search function at the bottom left of each forum page, put it to good use.
      [/quote]As a fish, I have no real issue with anything you are saying. I only think that you should remember that a forum is a medium for communication. Communication is a basic human need, especially when in times of stress or emotional disturbance. Before you dismiss "stupid questions" and "idiotic posts", remember that sometimes people talk just to talk. Sometimes people talk just because someone is listening.

      I also wonder what you are trying to gain from this post, aside from confirming an elite status. Are you helping or hurting? It sounds like you are trying to hurt.
    • wasy8
      wasy8
      Black
      Joined: 29.01.2009 Posts: 1,507
      [quote]Originally posted by hackbinder
      [QUOTE]
      When people like me, NightFrostASS, ihufa and other diamonds troll you on this forum and respond sarcastically all the time, it's because we see the same shit over and over from fish. Responding the same way to every stupid question is boring and redundant for us when you're too lazy to look back at old threads. Read old threads before you ask a question, since chances are its already been answered. There is a search function at the bottom left of each forum page, put it to good use.
      [/quote]As a fish, I have no real issue with anything you are saying. I only think that you should remember that a forum is a medium for communication. Communication is a basic human need, especially when in times of stress or emotional disturbance. Before you dismiss "stupid questions" and "idiotic posts", remember that sometimes people talk just to talk. Sometimes people talk just because someone is listening.

      I also wonder what you are trying to gain from this post, aside from confirming an elite status. Are you helping or hurting? It sounds like you are trying to hurt.[/quote]I'm not trying to confirm an elite status, because I'm in no way deserving of any elite status. I'm just another poker player.

      I'm explaining why this levelling and trolling occurs because if you haven't been around a forum environment, you don't get what's happening and people get all butthurt over it. It's because we've seen these exact questions (is pokerstars rigged, why can't i win, whats a good winrate, etc.) over and over again. That's how 2p2 has become so successful, 90% of the threads that get started here would get locked really fast with a mod telling you to stfu and use the search function. I'm trying to encourage more intelligent discussion in these forums, and encourage people to do their own really simple research because that's how you're going to get better.

      The small talk and blog forums are great for 'talking just to talk' as you put it.
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Originally posted by wasy8
      I edited the OP to take out the link to the site in question and just quote the article.
      Do you have permission to repost here since the article is likely copyrighted? We take very seriously our work being posted elsewhere, so it's only right to show the same respect to other sites.
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Originally posted by wasy8
      That's how 2p2 has become so successful, 90% of the threads that get started here would get locked really fast with a mod telling you to stfu and use the search function. I'm trying to encourage more intelligent discussion in these forums, and encourage people to do their own really simple research because that's how you're going to get better.
      We are a bigger site than 2p2 and therefore more successful because we value respecting our users and not treating them as idiots.
      There is no such thing as a stupid question, only a stupid answer imo.

      Flaming achieves nothing and only seeks to alienate users who may otherwise develop into active forum members who post intelligently.
    • wasy8
      wasy8
      Black
      Joined: 29.01.2009 Posts: 1,507
      Originally posted by Ribbo
      Do you have permission to repost here since the article is likely copyrighted? We take very seriously our work being posted elsewhere, so it's only right to show the same respect to other sites.
      I was advised by a PS mod to take out the link and simply quote the article since it is an affiliate site.

      Originally posted by Ribbo
      We are a bigger site than 2p2 and therefore more successful because we value respecting our users and not treating them as idiots.
      There is no such thing as a stupid question, only a stupid answer imo.

      Flaming achieves nothing and only seeks to alienate users who may otherwise develop into active forum members who post intelligently.
      No, you're a bigger site than 2p2 because you offer free bankrolls and forums to accommodate users of every major language, whereas 2p2 is an English based forum. Therefore you have pretty much exclusive access to non-english speaking poker players, which is a bigger market than english speaking players. Attributing PS success to its respectful treatment of players is pretty naive.

      Encouraging posting of repetitive topics might end up alienating your better players and just using this as a feeding ground for 2p2, in the English forums anyway.
    • gormless
      gormless
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.01.2010 Posts: 164
      Originally posted by Ribbo
      Flaming achieves nothing and only seeks to alienate users who may otherwise develop into active forum members who post intelligently.
      +1

      To original poster from a confirmed lurker on this and other forums (and so perhaps without the authority to comment), there is a solution to your problem of reading and responding to posts you class as stupid or repetitive.

      1. Don't open a thread that is obviously annoying to you then you don't have to read it.
      2. If you should happen to mistakenly open it and read it and it doesn't interest you and your only advice is to use a search button, google, or flame then exit the thread.
    • gormless
      gormless
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.01.2010 Posts: 164
      Originally posted by wasy8

      Encouraging posting of repetitive topics might end up alienating your better players and just using this as a feeding ground for 2p2, in the English forums anyway.
      I think you will find that the better players with the best mindset conduct themselves properly, and that the pointless/needless trolling flaming is restricted to a minority of so called better players.
    • gormless
      gormless
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.01.2010 Posts: 164
      I vote that this thread should be closed and deleted, or at the the very least moved from self study and management.

      It goes against the grain of this community and the fact that it was started by a diamond member (who carries a weight of responsibility with his status and so should know better) is sending the wrong message to potential members