[NL20-NL50] NL 20, 75s trying out some new bluffs

    • Pichux
      Pichux
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 318
      IPoker Network $20.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1007964
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      CO: $21.10
      Hero (BTN): $23.62
      SB: $24.30 20/15/7.0 on 177h sample.
      BB: $39.91
      UTG: $6.60
      MP: $11.50

      Pre Flop: ($0.30) Hero is BTN with 7 :heart: 5 :heart:
      3 folds, Hero raises to $0.70, SB calls $0.60, 1 fold

      Flop: ($1.60) 9 :spade: 8 :spade: T :heart: (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $1.00, SB calls $1

      Turn: ($3.60) Q :spade: (2 players)
      SB bets $2.20, Hero raises to $6.20, SB folds

      The guy was a bit agressive in the previous hands. Stacked him some hands before, when he called my push with AQs. That's why i thought out to try something different here and don't believe the otherwise very strong play. As his AF shows, he liked to be very aggro post.
  • 8 replies
    • N0pr3s3n7
      N0pr3s3n7
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      he is not check/calling and then donk betting such a flop with Jx or the flush so most of the time he ends up having some pair or AsX/KsX type of hand which needs fold equity and can't really check/call there.
    • falcone1983
      falcone1983
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      Joined: 17.05.2009 Posts: 5,420
      Originally posted by N0pr3s3n7
      he is not check/calling and then donk betting such a flop with Jx or the flush so most of the time he ends up having some pair or AsX/KsX type of hand which needs fold equity and can't really check/call there.
      Disagree completely.

      He has all nutty hands in his range (probably not sets, but certainly QT and a boatload of Jx, and some flushes). He can't really have AsXx/KsXx here unless he has a pair to go with it, and then bet/folding it would be the nut worst way to play it.

      I don't see him having a donk/folding range here at all, apart from complete air, so I just give up.

      I probably don't cbet flop either, but that can go either way I suppose.
    • N0pr3s3n7
      N0pr3s3n7
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      Originally posted by falcone1983
      Originally posted by N0pr3s3n7
      he is not check/calling and then donk betting such a flop with Jx or the flush so most of the time he ends up having some pair or AsX/KsX type of hand which needs fold equity and can't really check/call there.
      Disagree completely.

      He has all nutty hands in his range (probably not sets, but certainly QT and a boatload of Jx, and some flushes). He can't really have AsXx/KsXx here unless he has a pair to go with it, and then bet/folding it would be the nut worst way to play it.

      I don't see him having a donk/folding range here at all, apart from complete air, so I just give up.

      I probably don't cbet flop either, but that can go either way I suppose.
      and you bet/call QT on this turn ???????? ?( ?( ?( ?( LOL seems we think completely different but would you donk bet there with Jx , you get raised what you play against Jx/flush/KJ ??? you are always check/raising or check/calling there with a flush/straight because you are afraid if he raises and bet super big on river he will have flush and you play only for split which is like holding Ax on A 9 9 5 K , do you bet river ? If you get raised what do you do ? you just check/call because he might bluff you and you are not willing to play for split.People don't realize this and often bet but i'm sure you will realize this when it happens because you feel you will be bluffed in close to 70 % of the times in such a situations.Same goes for QT you donk/call top 2 here ??? you must be kiddin in 99% of the cases so I believe you.
    • falcone1983
      falcone1983
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      Joined: 17.05.2009 Posts: 5,420
      wat



      EDIT: To give a more serious response: it's not about what "you" would do with various holdings on this turncard, it's about assigning a range to a villain, and that's not the same thing. It's quite easy to see that this is a very strange spot to be bluffing (it's a scary board for villain too, and most people simply don't have a "float flop OOP, donk turn" bluffing line in their game, after all, why not check/raise the flop?). Since villain isn't bluffing, he's betting for value, or he has a pair+draw type hand that doesn't want to check/raise the turn for fear of getting blown of his hand, but does want to pick up some fold equity.

      His value range probably starts at QT and also contains J9s/JTs/KJ for the straight and some low flushes (discounted because it would make more sense to raise the flop with a FD). 76ss would fit quite nicely for example, maybe also 65ss & ATss. Sets & other two pairs can be discounted because he should obviously raise them on the flop.

      His semi-bluffing range has a lot of AT/KT/A9/K9 with a type of hands. But I feel those hands should also be discounted somewhat, because it's not very logical to bet them here and most people would just check again and hope to gain a free card and/or a cheap showdown.

      So taken together, his range is just superstrong: flushes, straights, top two, and pair+draws. It's pretty easy to see that you have very little fold equity against this range (even if we can credibly rep a bunch of strong hands ourselves). People just don't fold straights & flushes, even if it might be the correct play. They also don't fold pair+draws to the nuts (especially not getting 3:1). Villain might or might not fold QT, but even if he does and he has all 9 combo's of that in his range, it doesn't give you nearly enough FE.




      But seriously, try some punctuation and stuff, it makes your posts easier to read.
    • N0pr3s3n7
      N0pr3s3n7
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      Oh boy.You probably didn't got,what I wanted to point out and it is that he is always bluffing/semibluffing there.
      Reasons for this:
      1. If you hold there Jx,donk bet,your opponent raise,what do you do??You are always check/calling or check/raising there.
      2. If you hold 2 pair hand,same as 1,you bet he raise what do you do? You get bluffed or you lose your hole stack versus straight/flush ?
      3.You hold flush:you bet and he folds ALL his bluffing range meaning you get 0 value from any hands that have probably super low equity against flush but still got overall strong hand(2pair/pair+low flushdraw card).


      by 1,2,3 I want to point out : by donk betting you are ALWAYS having semibluff range or total bluff and by check/calling or raising you are representing your value range.You can't be serious if you think that he is donk betting with a value range(especially this opponent 20vpip/15pfr/7agf).Furthermore his 7 agf indicates a lot bluffing tendencies in such spots in which it's probably hard for hero to hold a real hand.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
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      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      I think Jx isn´t really b/f folding there. Not really sure he would play that way two pair or pair+fd. You likely ahve some fold equity, since he can take that line with one pair hands thinking you likely doesn´t have anything and have to fold but if he is doing that for value don´t really see him b/f too often on the turn, so with 7 high I´d just give up. board is too drawy to try to bluff him out his value range
    • N0pr3s3n7
      N0pr3s3n7
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      Joined: 14.05.2009 Posts: 1,280
      That's what I wanted to tell you, think about it:

      JJ nl 25 sh

      Look at the hand and tell me why is Hero betting and calling the all in?( of course you don't have to tell me just a retoric question.)That was my basic explanation for his range of donking there , not it is strong but it is weak and he shouldn't be ever betting there hand like Jx/2pair etc.
    • bradomurder
      bradomurder
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      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,329
      Originally posted by falcone1983
      Originally posted by N0pr3s3n7
      he is not check/calling and then donk betting such a flop with Jx or the flush so most of the time he ends up having some pair or AsX/KsX type of hand which needs fold equity and can't really check/call there.
      Disagree completely.

      He has all nutty hands in his range (probably not sets, but certainly QT and a boatload of Jx, and some flushes). He can't really have AsXx/KsXx here unless he has a pair to go with it, and then bet/folding it would be the nut worst way to play it.

      I don't see him having a donk/folding range here at all, apart from complete air, so I just give up.

      I probably don't cbet flop either, but that can go either way I suppose.
      Mostly agree, I think all nut hands are definitely in his range. This guy looks by his stats that he'll be almost never slowplaying.

      I do think QT is a bet/fold hand but it's pretty much the only one, other than air, which is unlikely because he called the flop OOP.

      In addition he's calling a raise from sb and that flop crashes right into his range.

      I probably don't cbet either