How wide do you open here?

    • bradomurder
      bradomurder
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,329
      Me and a friend were sweat sessioning it up and had differing oppinions on this so I thought I'd see what others thought.

      you are on BU and it gets folded to you, one of the blind is a tight TAG (say 13/10 pre ish and folding 80% to steal) the other is a 60/0 fish.

      I tend to open about what i'd open against a fish in HU from the button (about 65-75%) backing myself postflop to play those profitably

      He plays hands that can hit something as the fish isn't folding much (more like 30-40%)

      maybe i'm giving myself too much credit postflop, is it possible to play that range profitably?
  • 11 replies
    • thazar
      thazar
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      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      I'd agree with your friend and play hands that play profitably post flop
    • Hajler
      Hajler
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      Joined: 21.10.2008 Posts: 270
      Since you know the fish isn't folding preflop often, you probably shouldn't be raising complete trash in most cases. As to whether you can play a very wide range profitably postflop, you should take into consideration what kind of player he is, for example does he like to see flops but play fit or fold, or will he c/c every street with A high? VPIP isn't the only thing you should be thinking about.

      Obviously you want to play lots of hands with bad players, but idealy you want them on your right. Anyways that's my two cents.
    • thazar
      thazar
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      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      Originally posted by Hajler

      Obviously you want to play lots of hands with bad players, but idealy you want them on your right. Anyways that's my two cents.
      I guess they become on your right post flop, if they are in the blind , you are in BU.

      Originally posted by Hajler

      Since you know the fish isn't folding preflop often, you probably shouldn't be raising complete trash in most cases. As to whether you can play a very wide range profitably postflop, you should take into consideration what kind of player he is, for example does he like to see flops but play fit or fold, or will he c/c every street with A high? VPIP isn't the only thing you should be thinking about.
      completely agree with that.
    • bradomurder
      bradomurder
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      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,329
      Yeah you make a good point that you need some reads

      does it make sense though that you should always open a range larger than their calling range from the blinds? you will have position and can still pick up the blinds sometimes.
    • thazar
      thazar
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      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      As said previously the VPIP is often not enough. a 60vpip means it is a calling station preflop. You have calling station that fold a lot on the flop if they don't hit anything. you will have others that will call you at least to the river or even show down with A high or bottom pair or even to see if one of the 2 outers they need gonna magically turn out, nad on the river they are pot commited so they call anyway with a Q high. That is why your range must be adapted to each opponent. If he fold a lot post flop yes increase your opening range. but you need to think that when he hits, it is going to cost you more than a preflop fold because the villain might float or check/raise on flop
    • ihufa
      ihufa
      Gold
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      if he folds 80% of the time then you can open 100% and 80% of the time you'll win 1.5bb and 20% of the time you'll do something that shouldn't be worse than losing 3bb. this makes it an incredibly easy 100% open vs the reg. meanwhile you can probably also open 100% profitably vs a fish seeing as he doesn't raise ever so you'll always see a flop in position.

      actually i'd open 120% here
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      lol actually just a minute ago I wrote a serious reply on this topic but then decided not to post it, now I open this thread, and surprise surprise, ihufa posted a non trollish reply.

      Kinda creepy O_o
    • bradomurder
      bradomurder
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      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,329
      Originally posted by thazar
      As said previously the VPIP is often not enough. a 60vpip means it is a calling station preflop. You have calling station that fold a lot on the flop if they don't hit anything. you will have others that will call you at least to the river or even show down with A high or bottom pair or even to see if one of the 2 outers they need gonna magically turn out, nad on the river they are pot commited so they call anyway with a Q high. That is why your range must be adapted to each opponent. If he fold a lot post flop yes increase your opening range. but you need to think that when he hits, it is going to cost you more than a preflop fold because the villain might float or check/raise on flop
      you should be able to play a 70% range vs his 50% range (for example) profitably if you know they are a calling station though. Just take him for a trip to value city if you hit anything.
    • eteris
      eteris
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      Joined: 26.08.2007 Posts: 383
      Originally posted by bradomurder
      Just take him for a trip to value city if you hit anything.
      it's not a city, it's just a town
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      The presence of the second player who will sometimes have a good hand, and the fact that you are not getting a 1/2 bb discount, means you should open with a tighter range than you should HU. However, you might be opening too tightly HU, and depending on your reads of how your opponents play, you might find a 40-70% BTN range profitable, compared with 70-100% HU.

      With truly terrible postflop play from the fish, it is possible that it would still be right to open 100% from the button. However, really trashy hands like T3o will often make bluffing hands later, and if the fish is a calling station, then you will not find many profitable bluffs. When your opponent is taking unbalanced lines which protect against bluffs, don't walk into it and bluff, or else you will be the one getting outplayed.
    • Schrader69
      Schrader69
      Silver
      Joined: 08.03.2008 Posts: 345
      I have found this to be the optimal default range in this spot

      standard open top 55%
      10x open 56-60%
      open limp 61-70%
      standard open fold or tank fold 71-90%
      open limp or minraise 91-100%

      give or take 2-3% based on opponents and time of day