How to beat the micros?

    • PokerHammer
      PokerHammer
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.08.2007 Posts: 209
      Ok, you've all read the basic / bronze and silver articles (at least I hope you have!)
      You've been lead through the preflop minefield with the SHC and your confidence is hopefully growing because you're playing better than your opponents.
      I didn't say you have a big winrate, or you're winning every session, but YOU ARE playing better than your opponents.
      How do I know this? Because you're a member of PokerStrategy.com so you have an advantage over most of the competition.

      So, how do you beat the micros? Do you still use the SHC? Do you still follow the bronze postflop section? Do you follow the silver HU moves exactly, if at all? Do you know when you're WA/WB? Are overcards still a big leak?

      The reason I'm asking these questions is because sometimes it's easy to read the articles but not take the knowledge onto the tables with you. Sometimes you need to stop and think about how much you've actually learned.

      Also, how many of you have developed your own postflop style, one that uses the basics of what you've learned here, but has changed because of your own personal playing style?

      This thread would be a good place for us to discuss how far we've come and how much we've learned. Maybe we could teach each other a few new things.
  • 17 replies
    • Laurenz1988
      Laurenz1988
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.09.2007 Posts: 180
      Theres no substitution for experience, no matter how many books u read, u need to play tenthousands of hands. Postflop is the toughest part, u cant write a recipe for it in my eyes.
    • PokerHammer
      PokerHammer
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.08.2007 Posts: 209
      Originally posted by Laurenz1988
      Theres no substitution for experience, no matter how many books u read, u need to play tenthousands of hands. Postflop is the toughest part, u cant write a recipe for it in my eyes.

      Playing experience is just one part of improving as a player. Studying and posting/discussing hands are just as important.

      I certainly don't think there's a recipe for postflop play, which is why I was interested in how different players have developed their own styles.

      As a community we can all learn from each other and it's something we should take advantage of, for instance, we can help each other discover leaks, or help someone get over their weak-tight tendancies.

      Skills like hand-reading, value betting, understanding equity, when to raise for a free card, etc. None of us can claim to be experts in all of those areas, but, all of us combined, discussing these things can help each of us improve in the areas that we are weak in.
    • vladnz
      vladnz
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2007 Posts: 1,355
      PokerHammer what limits do you play?
    • PokerHammer
      PokerHammer
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.08.2007 Posts: 209
      I used to play $5-$10, mainly at Full Tilt and Party, but I lost my job a year ago and withdrew my bankrolls in a time of crisis.
      Anyway, I'm settled at work again and have managed to get back into poker, and joining PokerStrategy was great, I never turn down a free $50, it would be -EV to do so! :D

      I didn't have any real experience of the micros before, but to be honest they're not a whole lot different from 5-10. At those limits there are still plenty of fish, just not as many of them, and the better players are fighting over the fish all the time.
      In the micros there are plenty of fish for every decent player, which is nice.

      I've decided to do my own little experiment now I've got some time to dedicate to poker, so I've started playing .2c/.4c and have two requirements I have to meet to move up.
      1. Play a minimum of 20K hands.
      2. Win a minimum of 500BB.
      So far I've played just under 7K hands and have won $18.30 which is just over 450BB, my winrate (for what it's worth) is about 6.7/100!
      Basically I just need to get the next 13K hands played as quickly as possible and I'm planning on doing that at around 1K hands per day, so roughly two weeks and I'll move up to .5c/.10c and use the same requirements.

      I will hardly ever bluff at these levels, it's just pointless, fold equity is so low. So it's value bet, value bet and then just for a change I'll value bet some more. :)
      If you're a relatively new player it's a great place to start understanding pot equity and pot odds. Also, although it's not so important at these levels, you should take some time to consider your opponents range and maybe do some basic combinational analysis. It's great practice for when you move up.

      Combinational analysis deserves a thread of it's own, but PokerStrategy has a great learning curve structure, so anyone who doesn't know what that is should just concentrate on VALUE BETTING, which is what you're instructed to do in the excellent bronze and silver articles.
    • SonicXT
      SonicXT
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2007 Posts: 4,736
      Well, the gold articles about playing maniacs and calling stations have been the most valuable to me in order to combat the microlimits.
      If you play decent poker, a winrate in the region of 6 to 9 BB/100 is possible to achieve at the microlimits. I make 4$ an hour on average now at NL10 (6 tabling) and even on bad days, it's hard to lose more than 10 $ in one session.
    • PokerHammer
      PokerHammer
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.08.2007 Posts: 209
      Originally posted by SonicXT
      Well, the gold articles about playing maniacs and calling stations have been the most valuable to me in order to combat the microlimits.

      That's what makes PokerStrategy so good. Learning the basics first, getting a grasp on them, and then moving on to something more advanced when you're ready.

      It's like a school for Poker, and possibly unique online.
    • SonicXT
      SonicXT
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2007 Posts: 4,736
      It's hard to reach gold on the microlimits alone though, while the most needed articles for those limits are the gold ones.
    • PokerHammer
      PokerHammer
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.08.2007 Posts: 209
      Originally posted by SonicXT
      It's hard to reach gold on the microlimits alone though, while the most needed articles for those limits are the gold ones.

      That's a good point, although I still favour pure value betting over player specific moves at these limits.
      For a lot of players learning moves like bet turn, check river against a calling station are probably not necessary and maybe too much too soon.

      SonicXT, Were you new to holdem when you joined this site, and what sort of areas do you still feel are weak in your game?
    • SonicXT
      SonicXT
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2007 Posts: 4,736
      I wasn't new to Hold'em, been playing it for about 3 years in real life (NL10 games with friends), sometimes online ... used to have money on carbonpoker in a distant past. I wasn't very good though, relied on instinct more.
      Right now, I'd say my greatest weaknesses is hating getting bluffed and overestimating implied odds at microlimits. I gotta get my WTS down from 28-30 to about 22-25.
      I think I do have a pretty good insight in the game though from an agressive point of view, even squeeze play and floating are used in my play sometimes with obvious positive results. I play the psychological game a little more than average, it works so far with a winrate of 4$ an hour on NL10 :) I know the basics of most, if not all concepts, on this site by now, but there's room for improvement in every area of course, else I'd be a pro ;)
    • PokerHammer
      PokerHammer
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.08.2007 Posts: 209
      Thanks Sonic, looks like you know your stuff! It'd be great to find out what other people feel are their strengths and weaknesses.

      I'll talk about mine, although it will probably be long winded, like most of my posts. :D

      Not now though, got things to do on this busy Saturday morning!
    • stantos
      stantos
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.10.2007 Posts: 173
      Hi all

      I'd played a little before finding this site, I lost prob $100 on ladbrokes over 4 months. Mainly due to BRM or lack of. The classic story of one good session, you think your Gus Hanson then bang you realise your not that good :)

      I ve just moved up to NL25 and my bank roll stands at $210, peaking at $226 and dipping at $190.

      My last few sessions have been bad beat after bad beat ($226 down to $190) but have built this back up.

      I play SSS but may change to BSS after i get my $100 bonus. I think my skills have improved enough to give it a go.

      My main weakness i would say is TILTING, like us all i'm still trying to stop it happen before it does. Little things like limping with monsters, just calling out of position only to be raised behind. All obviously against the rules of SSS. I'm getting better though.

      I tend to get really annoyed easily when I paly against fools, I think this comes with playing when tired sometimes. To address this I've deposited a small amount into another poker account for times that I want to play to relax me but not wanting to risk my PP bankroll. This appears to be working also.

      I don't really know what my strengths are, I suppose being a member here is one.

      Can someone explain what what the BIG BLIND is i don't fully understand, sorry if it sounds silly.
    • ajfonso
      ajfonso
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2007 Posts: 4,158
      bb/100 limit holdem is 2 big blinds (also called ptBB/100 (pokertracker bigbets)
      bb/100 no limit holdem is 1 bigblind

      The cool thing of limit hold em is that it is so easy. The only thing you really need to know is play tight and value bet if you hit untill the river. Watch out for scary boards and don't pay them of if it is obvious you are beaten.

      No limit hold'em is much harder. Preflop will help alot but the postflop is so much harder. Agression, reading, valuebtting is much more complicated.

      I think one should always start of with limit hold'em because it is al about playing tight and click the bet button.
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      Originally posted by ajfonso
      bb/100 limit holdem is 2 big blinds (also called ptBB/100 (pokertracker bigbets)
      bb/100 no limit holdem is 1 bigblind

      The cool thing of limit hold em is that it is so easy. The only thing you really need to know is play tight and value bet if you hit untill the river. Watch out for scary boards and don't pay them of if it is obvious you are beaten.

      No limit hold'em is much harder. Preflop will help alot but the postflop is so much harder. Agression, reading, valuebtting is much more complicated.

      I think one should always start of with limit hold'em because it is al about playing tight and click the bet button.
      Well the game is easier to understand but it's harder to win money with it than with NL because fish also make more intuitive correct plays because it is so easy to understand. (This is also the reason why PL Omaha is so profitable. It's hard to understand for people who only want to play for fun.)

      The higher the limits the harder FL gets. The same goes for NL but as stated above it's easier to make more mistakes and there are currently more players at the higher limit.
    • Floating
      Floating
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.07.2007 Posts: 132
      [/quote] (This is also the reason why PL Omaha is so profitable. It's hard to understand for people who only want to play for fun.)

      [/quote]are there any plans for a PL Omaha section at PS?
    • SonicXT
      SonicXT
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2007 Posts: 4,736
      They only gotta translate the German stuff, so I guess it's planned for one of those content weeks as a "new" addition :)
    • DarthBobo
      DarthBobo
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2007 Posts: 1,134
      ciRith, I've been playing Limit since october (joined PS then). So far I've played over 10000 hands at 0.10-0.20 and 0.05-0.10. I'm slightly less than break-even.

      I apply the strategy articles, I read a lot, my stats say that I play TAG and they are similar to stats of many winning FL players. I have sticked to the BR management and it has caused me to switch back to a lower level several times.

      I am not worried or losing patience. I have not tilted yet.

      I have seen several posts here on the forum where a losing player posts his thoughts. I know that it could be possible that my 10000 hands has been a downswing so far...

      However, in your post you say that it's easier to win money with NL. Now I am thinking of switching to NL...

      Do you think that I should give it a try? Or do you think it's wiser to keep studying FL?
    • ciRith
      ciRith
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2005 Posts: 18,556
      You can win money with both. I don't play Nl by myself but what I heart is that it's easier at the moment to win with the same effort.

      The swings are also smaller but I guess you can start tilting very fast afer losing a whole stack.

      10000 hands is really not much. Break even over 40000 hands is pretty normal (not on the micros).

      So give NL a try and play whatevery you like more. If you have the feeling that NL is boring then switch back to FL. Winning money is possible with both but you should realize that you have to play much and if you don't like a game then your motivation will drop very fast. I myself like FL more because there is way more action. :)