Betsizing exercises, questions, comments (as related to the videos)

  • 20 replies
    • THESHade
      THESHade
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2010 Posts: 5,418
      Examples when we shoudl Adjsut our betsize
      Blinds are tight - oR less fromSb and BU + mybe even CO
      Blinds is a Fish- oR bigger, like 4x (I oR 3x normally)
      Blinds 3bet a lot oR less- 2.5x from LP


      Those Qs u have asked in videos w those examples, we hsoudl answer them too or we shoudl jsut think about it?
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by THESHade

      Those Qs u have asked in videos w those examples, we hsoudl answer them too or we shoudl jsut think about it?
      You can do either. We'll answer them together in the 3rd video.

      I'd recommend posting your answers and comparing them with others. I'll chime in as well.
    • THESHade
      THESHade
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.03.2010 Posts: 5,418
      kk- gonna write em down to this post tomorrow cause I ahve to rewatch the vid cause I didnt write it down


      Example Questions:

      ....
    • Johnnybi
      Johnnybi
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.02.2010 Posts: 232
      Hi Bogdan,

      so far I really like the first part of ur serious. I´m also interested to get deeper into the betsizing. Especially when being confronted with LAGs.
      That´s why I participating and respond to your questions and excersises. BTW I felt a lil bit like in school again.



      E.1: What influences our betsizing:

      - the playing style loose, tight, aggressive, passiv
      - how active or passive the player defends his blinds
      - my own image
      - the history with the player
      - my reads on his betting patterns


      E.2:

      4,5 bb-> 1:3 -> 75 %
      5 bb -> 1: 3,3 -> 77%
      7 bb -> 1: 4,67 -> 83 %


      E.3:

      2,5 bb -> 1: 1,3 -> 57%
      3 bb -> 1: 1,67 -> 63%
      3,5bb -> 1: 2 -> 67%
      4bb -> 1: 2,3 -> 70%
      5bb -> 1:3 -> 75%
      7bb -> 1: 4,3 -> 81%


      E.4: pot odds

      nmi sb bb
      4,5bb 25 % 40 % 37%
      5bb 23 % 42 % 38 %
      7bb 17 % 43,5 % 41,7 %
      10bb 13 % 45,5 % 43 %




      Q.1: Why we want to bet less in LP considering the pot odds.
      We got position, so we don´t need to risk so much to steal with even marginal hands from sb and bb. With strong hands we can exploit them more if they call and stay invincible.

      Q. 2: We r on the BU and sb and bb r super tight.
      I think it´s not necessary to risk so much to make them fold. If they call we can outplay them postflop and if they 3bet we can assume they are strong, maybe not super strong.
      So I´d adjust to 2,5 bb

      Q. 3: We r on the BU. The sb is tight (10% VP) and the bb is loose passive (75 % VP).
      Although we don’t need much to bet in order to make the tag fold, I´d bet higher to give the loose player bad odds and take more advantage of his loose play.
      I´d adjust to 3,5 - 4 bb.

      Q. 4: We r in EP and all players r tight.
      We don´t need to bet much to make them fold.
      I´d adjust to 2,5 bb.

      Q. 5: Table is very aggressive and the players r 3betting a lot.
      I don´t think it would change anything. I just change my range and play tighter.
      If I had to I´d bet less, so it does not get to expensive to play a hand. Although that could incline more 3 betting

      Q. 6: We have a loose player (75%VP) behind us and the rest is tight.
      I think we should bet higher, because we can exploit him the whole way. We take advantage of his bad odds and outplay him postflop. 3,5. If we don’t have position on him i´d go down to 2,5 because it´s more difficult to outplay postflop but enough to isolate him. Our range should increase, because we want to play many hands with the fish.

      Q. 7: We r BB and all previous players have limped.
      I assume they are all weak players with weak hands. So I raise to 6-8 bb. 3bb + 1bb for each limper. I readjust that a lil bit depending on my strength, cos we will play out oop. But 6 bb shall be enough to isolate.

      Q. 8: We r on the BU and the middlepositionplayer has limped. He is very loose and calls large bets. The blinds are mostly TAGs.
      I would bet higher to exploit the loose player right on from the beginning giving him bad odds, especially because we got position on him.
      I´d adjust to 3,5 - 4 bb.

      Q- 9: We are in middle position and UTG has limped. The Co has posted his blind oop. UTG player calls large bets.
      I assume that CO is a fish and to exploit them and isolate the CO I´d bet 6 bb = 4 bb + 1bb for each limp.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Very good start Johnnybi.

      For Q4 I'd definitely suggest adjusting our opening but I believe 2.5 to be too small (in UTG and even UTG+1). Your ranges will be wider but usually won't be able to reach the size of your range on the button for example.

      Do you guys want to see anything specific covered in video number 2? I'm finalizing it this weekend (or let me know if you have any suggestions on how I can make it better than the first).
    • Johnnybi
      Johnnybi
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.02.2010 Posts: 232
      Hi Bogdan,

      to Q4, i meant 3,5.

      I think u did a good job with ur video. It was short and compact, but not complicated.

      U asked for specifics: I don´t know if it´s too late, but I really would like to know how to adjust, if there are 2-3 aggressive and loose players on the table, that preflop are more likely a callingstation (PFR: 10, 3bet: 5).

      Regards
      J.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Could you give me some examples of information you have on players left to act that qualify under that criteria?

      I'll make sure to answer that question in the 3rd video as well.
    • JonikoP
      JonikoP
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 600
      Hi Bogdan,

      Enjoyed your video a lot.

      Be intested to here more on the following in later videos:

      - bet sizing at different stakes - i.e. at micros, do you think you can c-bet less when you miss and more when you hit? Very exploitable against good players but ok at NL10?

      - the maths side of things is really interesting. I'd be interested in your thoughts on bet sizing for river bluffs. The types of board that you need to bluff big on and those that you can get away with a smaller bluff. I guess this depends on the range you put your opponent on.

      - Bet sizing with strong hands with a view to getting stacks in on the flop/turn/river depending on stack sizes of villans.

      - c-bet sizing generally depending on position/board/opponent.

      Looking forward to the next installment!
      Jon
    • Johnnybi
      Johnnybi
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.02.2010 Posts: 232
      I play Nl 50 and got problems with players that got following stats:

      VP: 40+; PFR: 8-; AFQ: 50+; 3bet: 0; fold3bet: 10; ccbet: 60+

      They play any suit and any connector and they wanna see the flop.
      If there is only one of that kind of player and one more TAG at the table, he is an easy target (especially cos he calls too many 3bets).
      But if there are at least 2 of them, its so difficult. I see the flop very often with 2 others. The Problems are:
      I´m against one of them oop.
      Every time I check they bet big, potcontrol is very difficult.
      Their range is so wide, I don´t know what they have.
      On the turn I really dont know what to do with midpair or bottompair and gutshot...they also call a lot of 2nd barrels

      I play tighter, use bluffinduce and cbet dry, paired boards with one high card.
      I wanna punish them more and exploit their loose style.
      Shall I adjust the betsize of 2/3 on the flop, if i got tpgk or better. Shall I generally bet higher, cos otherwise it´s readable?? Or shall I only bet the board if I hit good? ...for example to play an oesd passively.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by JonikoP
      Hi Bogdan,

      Enjoyed your video a lot.

      Be intested to here more on the following in later videos:

      - bet sizing at different stakes - i.e. at micros, do you think you can c-bet less when you miss and more when you hit? Very exploitable against good players but ok at NL10?

      - the maths side of things is really interesting. I'd be interested in your thoughts on bet sizing for river bluffs. The types of board that you need to bluff big on and those that you can get away with a smaller bluff. I guess this depends on the range you put your opponent on.

      - Bet sizing with strong hands with a view to getting stacks in on the flop/turn/river depending on stack sizes of villans.

      - c-bet sizing generally depending on position/board/opponent.

      Looking forward to the next installment!
      Jon
      I should be able to cover all of that in EP 4 and 5.

      If you would like to get answers to some of these questions directly feel free to contact me.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by Johnnybi
      I play Nl 50 and got problems with players that got following stats:

      VP: 40+; PFR: 8-; AFQ: 50+; 3bet: 0; fold3bet: 10; ccbet: 60+

      They play any suit and any connector and they wanna see the flop.
      If there is only one of that kind of player and one more TAG at the table, he is an easy target (especially cos he calls too many 3bets).
      But if there are at least 2 of them, its so difficult. I see the flop very often with 2 others. The Problems are:
      I´m against one of them oop.
      Every time I check they bet big, potcontrol is very difficult.
      Their range is so wide, I don´t know what they have.
      On the turn I really dont know what to do with midpair or bottompair and gutshot...they also call a lot of 2nd barrels

      I play tighter, use bluffinduce and cbet dry, paired boards with one high card.
      I wanna punish them more and exploit their loose style.
      Shall I adjust the betsize of 2/3 on the flop, if i got tpgk or better. Shall I generally bet higher, cos otherwise it´s readable?? Or shall I only bet the board if I hit good? ...for example to play an oesd passively.
      The type you describe seems passive preflop and very aggressive postflop. Against these type of players I find that it's imperative to tighten up significantly preflop and play hands that can flop decent bluff catchers (ie: big cards vs suited connectors). It also helps paying attention to at least the hands they get to showdown with.
      A lot of these guys have bet sizing tells, timing tells, etc.
      Since most are not very good at picking up information and playing a decent game they won't pick up on bet sizing tells postflop. Because of that I prefer to generally bet bigger for value than as a bluff.

      Remember, if his range is wide (for both betting and calling) that means you have more hands you can get value from (and bluffs are close to worthless unless you are semi-bluffing).

      If you have any specific hand examples I'd love to have a talk on the situations that have come up. If you are posting them pass me a link and make sure to post ALL the information you have available (including on the other players at the table).
    • Johnnybi
      Johnnybi
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.02.2010 Posts: 232
      http://de.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=950706

      Here is a typical example.
      The utg and mp3 -limper have the same stats as described. They limped the whole time. What do u think, if I raise PF in that situation like in a 3bet: 10 BB.

      BTW, they have betsizing tells. When they bet pot superquickly they got nothing or a weak hand, but do I wanna call with bottompair...

      One more question: Let´s say im the BU and I have a hand like JT, sc, A6s or 22-66 and 2 players have already limped. Shall I raise and to how much or just limp or fold. Both limpers are loose and will call a raise. Imo no steal and no isolation possible.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by Johnnybi
      http://de.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=950706

      Here is a typical example.
      The utg and mp3 -limper have the same stats as described. They limped the whole time. What do u think, if I raise PF in that situation like in a 3bet: 10 BB.

      BTW, they have betsizing tells. When they bet pot superquickly they got nothing or a weak hand, but do I wanna call with bottompair...

      One more question: Let´s say im the BU and I have a hand like JT, sc, A6s or 22-66 and 2 players have already limped. Shall I raise and to how much or just limp or fold. Both limpers are loose and will call a raise. Imo no steal and no isolation possible.
      With these types of players it comes down to conditioning them to call.

      For example you might raise to let's say 8-10 BB, when they both limp, and have them fold let's say the first few times. After that they'll usually start calling because they want to play hands and you've been doing it all the time. Usually what I do in scenarios like that is raise with a pretty narrow value range. Because of that I can afford to make it really big.


      The second part, you would have to define their nothing or weak hand. What I mean by that is compare how the equity of their perceived nothing/weak does vs your buttom pair. For example if he let's say does that with overs (and backdoors) and you have bottom pair no kicker he has quite a bit of equity vs you so calling is not as good. He actually might even have a better pair than you.

      Just a quick example. If you are on a board of K95 rainbow and he bets let's say QQ-TT,88-66,A2s+,Q7s+,Q5s,J8s+,J5s,T8s+,T5s,95s+,85s,75s,65s,A5o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o,97o+ (second pair or worse) and you have 65s you have 50% equity in the hand. However there are 2 more streets to play with most cards being overcards to your hand and very few improving your hand. Thus, especially if OOP, will make it very hard to play it profitably. But let's say you now have a J9s your equity is 70.5%.

      And as a final note on that, if you have tells/reads on them act on them. That's the only way to learn how to improve your read making skills and profit from them. What good are the reads if we are afraid to use them (except for the most obvious ones)?


      For the third part.

      This one is a bit more tricky because it depends a lot on your postflop reads on them. It also depends on how many hands they actually limp preflop (as there are players that let's say limp 20% of hands and raise 1% so their range is stronger than someone limping 50% of hands).
      I generally prefer to play all suited aces for their flush value. Most of these weak players like to play any suited cards so the value of overflushing someone is rather big. We just have to be careful with our 1p type hands, however even there we will have TP most of the time and these type of players can pay off (at least 2 streets) with weaker hands. Low PPs usually have set value but not much else because they lack equity posftlop (ie: when you flop nothing). The suited connectors and lower broadways play similarly to the suited connectors and are not the best. If the fish are passive and a bit straight forward they are definitely playable as the raise. If they are aggressive you will have low cards that flop weak bluff catchers. Thus making them hard to play (JTs though flops better bluff catchers).

      Hope that answers your questions.

      Let me know if you'd like more detailed explanation on either of the topics.
    • Johnnybi
      Johnnybi
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.02.2010 Posts: 232
      Thank you Bogdan for ur reply.

      On the third part I´d like to get more details.
      If i know I can isolate 1 player I raise 3BB + 1BB for each limper.
      But If I know I have at least two callers PF, I don´t know to how much I shall raise with these Hands. On the one hand I have to raise in order to get rid of the sb and bb. On the other hand I don´t wanna raise less with A6s than QQ for example. I´m readable.

      So the question is, shall I always raise the same amount of bb or adjust the betsizing a lil bit to my handstrength, when I´m with 2 or more players like described?
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by Johnnybi
      Thank you Bogdan for ur reply.

      On the third part I´d like to get more details.
      If i know I can isolate 1 player I raise 3BB + 1BB for each limper.
      But If I know I have at least two callers PF, I don´t know to how much I shall raise with these Hands. On the one hand I have to raise in order to get rid of the sb and bb. On the other hand I don´t wanna raise less with A6s than QQ for example. I´m readable.

      So the question is, shall I always raise the same amount of bb or adjust the betsizing a lil bit to my handstrength, when I´m with 2 or more players like described?
      It depends on who the SB/BB are. For example, if you considered either of them to be a decent reg they will definitely pick up on your bet sizing tells and 3-bet you with more ease (or be able to play easier postflop vs you). If the blinds are nits or multitabling regs then you can vary your size by 1-2 bb but nothing too obvious. And here we still need to know or assume how the fish play postflop. Because if they all fold a lot postflop or call super light we can actually make it big in both cases.
    • Johnnybi
      Johnnybi
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.02.2010 Posts: 232
      Originally posted by BogdanPS
      It depends on who the SB/BB are. For example, if you considered either of them to be a decent reg they will definitely pick up on your bet sizing tells and 3-bet you with more ease (or be able to play easier postflop vs you). If the blinds are nits or multitabling regs then you can vary your size by 1-2 bb but nothing too obvious. And here we still need to know or assume how the fish play postflop. Because if they all fold a lot postflop or call super light we can actually make it big in both cases.
      Ok.
      Shall we also make it bigger, if they not only call light but play very aggressiv postflop? Cos against these players Im very quickly confronted to play for my whole stack. For example I got A6s. Board: ATJ(F) 8(T). On the T I wanna control the pot, but will oop be confronted with a pot bet and then on the river also/ or I 2nd barrel and ch the R and he bets pot. So the bigger I bet PF, the bigger become all the board bets. And with A6s I dont wanna make 3 bets.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by Johnnybi
      Originally posted by BogdanPS
      It depends on who the SB/BB are. For example, if you considered either of them to be a decent reg they will definitely pick up on your bet sizing tells and 3-bet you with more ease (or be able to play easier postflop vs you). If the blinds are nits or multitabling regs then you can vary your size by 1-2 bb but nothing too obvious. And here we still need to know or assume how the fish play postflop. Because if they all fold a lot postflop or call super light we can actually make it big in both cases.
      Ok.
      Shall we also make it bigger, if they not only call light but play very aggressiv postflop? Cos against these players Im very quickly confronted to play for my whole stack. For example I got A6s. Board: ATJ(F) 8(T). On the T I wanna control the pot, but will oop be confronted with a pot bet and then on the river also/ or I 2nd barrel and ch the R and he bets pot. So the bigger I bet PF, the bigger become all the board bets. And with A6s I dont wanna make 3 bets.
      Aren't we IP in this example? Or am I misreading your text?

      We are assuming here that after you cbet ATJ you get donked for pot on turn and river? Otherwise you can simply check back the turn and call any river if you did want to pot control (although you give up value vs draws like 1p + draw hands).
    • Johnnybi
      Johnnybi
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.02.2010 Posts: 232
      Originally posted by BogdanPS

      Aren't we IP in this example? Or am I misreading your text?

      We are assuming here that after you cbet ATJ you get donked for pot on turn and river? Otherwise you can simply check back the turn and call any river if you did want to pot control (although you give up value vs draws like 1p + draw hands).

      No u r right.
      I was jumpimg in my head to a different situation with that hand....i´m in the CU and one of this postflop LAGs limps from mp and the other one is on the BU.
      So oop against one LAG, who starts firing the turn and river after I cbet and ch T for pot control or who fires pot on the R after I 3nd barrelled him and ch R.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by Johnnybi
      Originally posted by BogdanPS

      Aren't we IP in this example? Or am I misreading your text?

      We are assuming here that after you cbet ATJ you get donked for pot on turn and river? Otherwise you can simply check back the turn and call any river if you did want to pot control (although you give up value vs draws like 1p + draw hands).

      No u r right.
      I was jumpimg in my head to a different situation with that hand....i´m in the CU and one of this postflop LAGs limps from mp and the other one is on the BU.
      So oop against one LAG, who starts firing the turn and river after I cbet and ch T for pot control or who fires pot on the R after I 3nd barrelled him and ch R.
      If you expect a multiway pot with you caught inbetween frequently we have to tighten up our range significantly. Choose hands that can flop bluffcathers that you are happy calling down 2-3 streets with.

      Against players (and in situations) like this pot control is simply something we won't be able to use.
    • 1
    • 2