SSS is a loser.

    • brett1985
      brett1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 33
      The rationale behind this strategy appears to be quite flawed to me. It presents too many situations where I am at best 50/50 in hands and is not profitable because of that

      I do not need results to prove this. Whether the strategy has made 100s of $ for one player or seen another go bankrupt thats not the point. We should not be results oriented.

      Rather the fact of the matter is, some people will get lucky and others wont. Looking back on my hands its clear to see why after 14k hands I am still on or about my $50. It's because most of the time the short stack strategy presents us with 50/50 all ins pre flop. It relies on the mistakes of other players to be profitable but the opposite of this is that players actually play tighter against a short stack who plays only premium hands.

      If I have JJ someone has QQ-AA or a 50-50 shot with AK and visa versa. I think good players get the edge in poker post flop and thats why this strategy is pointless as it doesn't allow for that.
  • 11 replies
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Originally posted by brett1985
      I do not need results to prove this...
      You definitely need results to prove your theory, because the short stack strategy is based on the fact that a short stack strategy player has the best hand most of the time. 14k hands are definitely not enough to say whether this strategy works or not. But as a lot of PokerStrategy players have already shown, the short stack strategy is profitable and is the best strategy for beginners. In addition: I haven't seen you posting any of your hands, so there might be some mistakes in your game which influence your winrate negatively.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • brett1985
      brett1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 33
      Thank you for the reply.

      I disagree about being results oriented in poker. Just because someone beats your AA with 35o does not prove you should adjust your play. Similarly if one player goes bust with short stack strategy that result does not prove it does not work. And visa versa for those who have won $ with it.

      No for me the real test is to see what my equity is whenever I am all in against opponents. I do have poker tracker and I can see my play and look at the strategy on this site and 99% of the time I have made the correct play.

      My experience is this

      Whenever I have pocket jacks i can count on one hand the number of times I have got action from lower pocket pairs. I am careful to select tables according to average pot and large number of big stacks. If I get QQ it folds round because no one has AA KK or AK. Occassionally I get called by JJ. With pocket kk and AA I am usually good for winning the hand if I get called but once again its likely only other premium hands that will pay me off. Even the most retarded of players can see through my transparent game.

      Unfortunately people are wise to SSS and without people calling short stacks liberally it certainly isn't anymore than a break even strategy for me. I therefore go a step further and suggest it is a loser because theres no point in putting in 20k hands to come out of it with the same $ you started on. Fair enough you might want to bonus, but that aside...

      I might refine my opinions and say that it may be only on partypoker where the strategy comes unstuck. There are so many SS there and people seem to know what they are doing. Maybe better on other sites?
    • Utahmar
      Utahmar
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 2,414
      Being result oriented means, results on big sample, but you know that. And adaptation is of course is a must at any poker table. If your game is transparent, use your image. I know its not for the very beginners, but for real beginners sticking to the strategy, as you mentioned means, they are not making huge mistakes, that costs all their 50$ start bankroll. You can be very sure, the players at NL200 + playing with shortstack are capable making moves to use their image.
    • brett1985
      brett1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 33
      Originally posted by Utahmar
      Being result oriented means, results on big sample, but you know that. And adaptation is of course is a must at any poker table. If your game is transparent, use your image. I know its not for the very beginners, but for real beginners sticking to the strategy, as you mentioned means, they are not making huge mistakes, that costs all their 50$ start bankroll. You can be very sure, the players at NL200 + playing with shortstack are capable making moves to use their image.
      I am going to take a good look through my database and see what adjustments I feel would be appropriate. Like you suggest I may need to play a more flexible short stack strategy in order to exploit these opponents.
    • snrkskfmf
      snrkskfmf
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.02.2007 Posts: 18
      Originally posted by Puschkin81
      Originally posted by brett1985
      I do not need results to prove this...
      You definitely need results to prove your theory, because the short stack strategy is based on the fact that a short stack strategy player has the best hand most of the time. 14k hands are definitely not enough to say whether this strategy works or not. But as a lot of PokerStrategy players have already shown, the short stack strategy is profitable and is the best strategy for beginners. In addition: I haven't seen you posting any of your hands, so there might be some mistakes in your game which influence your winrate negatively.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
      though i dont play lots of holdem, whether it be a limit or no limit, i totally agree with u. it is by far the best strategy for beginners
    • brett1985
      brett1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 33
      It is indeed an acceptable strategy for beginners. I agree too.

      I just wouldn't get ideas about building a bankroll with it. Mix in a few other ideas like blind stealing and then you are starting to make a profit.
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      That's definitely not true. You can also build a bankroll without stealing the blinds. For beginners it would be a bankroll killer to start with blind steals. That's something for higher limits. The SSS has shown that it is the best strategy to learn the game of No Limit AND to build your bankroll. There are numerous players in our forums who can verify this.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • Utahmar
      Utahmar
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 2,414
      Digged through my pokertracker db myself. I think my results are Full Tilt specific.
      In the last 20k hands ( although 8k from NL25, 12k from NL50 ).
      Played hands by SSS chart , not in the blinds : +658.6$
      Played hands by SSS chart, in the blinds : +227$
      My deviance P, NOT SSS hands NOT in the blinds : -1.8$ ... eheh
      Not SSS hands played / folded from blinds : -1010.9$

      So, my blind play is baaaad, really P, and i guess part of the lot of blind loss, that on FT most time you play 9 handed, and quite many times 8 handed, as one player not unusual to sit out.

      SSS working, fact.
    • Utahmar
      Utahmar
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 2,414
      The upside is from the blinds, when im put money in , aka raise not SSS from blinds, im up 41$ ....
      So its my freeplay checks/folds are -1052$.
    • brett1985
      brett1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 33
      Originally posted by Puschkin81
      That's definitely not true. You can also build a bankroll without stealing the blinds. For beginners it would be a bankroll killer to start with blind steals. That's something for higher limits. The SSS has shown that it is the best strategy to learn the game of No Limit AND to build your bankroll. There are numerous players in our forums who can verify this.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
      I did not suggest beginners start to steal blinds. I was explaining my personal experiences.

      My Pokertracker stats show: 15k hands, total profit $45, (Blinds)chance to steal and raised won $21

      Almost 50% of my profit has come from stealing blinds.

      SSS is subject to variance. It's poker. At one stage I went on a run where I went from $106-69.

      Additionally SSS is also subject to time considerations like anything else in life. Is the time invested worth it for the gains made? As people have said you could break even for 20k hands with this.

      Yes there are people who have made a great success of it and I don't doubt that. Personally I recommend that no one forgets the difficulties with this strategy nor underestimates the time it takes to make worthwhile gains. I am expecting to have to play 50k hands at least before I hit 50NL.

      With SSS:
      I have time on my hands and took your advice and am sticking to it. I started to adds bits and pieces to it inc blind stealing and its making it better for me and I have poker tracker stats to prove it.
    • brett1985
      brett1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 33
      Originally posted by Utahmar
      The upside is from the blinds, when im put money in , aka raise not SSS from blinds, im up 41$ ....
      So its my freeplay checks/folds are -1052$.
      Yes thats to be expected. I checked a while back and I had made $190 but lost $165 paying blinds!

      I think the correct way to check how much money you have made 'stealing' in cutoff or button is to do a filter on poker tracker. Check 'put money in pot' and 'chance to steal and raised'.