OESD on flop

    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      Titan No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00/$2.00BB (Titan HH Converter by Kreatief)

      MP3 ($41.65)
      CO ($200.00) (Hero)
      Button ($121.35)
      SB ($204.40)
      BB ($153.75)
      UTG ($500.25)
      UTG+1 ($201.70)
      UTG+2 ($200.20)
      MP1 ($25.25)
      MP2 ($190.60)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with J:club: , Q:diamond:
      UTG calls $2.00, UTG+1 calls $2.00, 4 folds, Hero checks, Button calls $2.00, 1 folds, BB checks,

      Flop: T:spade: , A:club: , 9:heart: ( $11 )
      BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, Button bets $8.00, 3 folds, Hero ?

      My question is, do I get to consider possible implied odds in making a decision at this point? Strictly speaking, needing 1:4, it is a fold, because I am getting only about 1:2.4.
  • 11 replies
    • mashmash
      mashmash
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.08.2007 Posts: 29
      It depends on your read of this guy. You don't have pot odds but you might have great implied odds. The pot was unraised, and he is on the button, which means in all likelihood he has nothing or is weak. Calling would generally be unprofitable, but you also have to consider that he might have a reasonable hand like 2 pair or that you may be able to bluff him off on the turn or river as well. Really depends on his stats and calling and betting tendencies but calling wouldn't be a total disaster.
    • brett1985
      brett1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 33
      Don't you need 1:5 to justify a call on OESD?
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Yes, that's correct brett1985. You need 4.9:1. The pot is $19 and you would need a pot of ~$40 to make a call of $8 profitable. So the questions is whether you will get the missing $21 on the turn if you hit your straight. That depends a lot on your opponent. So some stats would be helpful.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • brett1985
      brett1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 33
      This post got me thinking:

      One thing I don't like about this hand is playing out of position.

      In position against a suitable opponent a raise might be a nice play with a view to your opponent either folding or checking the turn to you. Thats a nice way of controlling the pot and seeing the river card cheaply.

      It occurs to me that OOP, without a read and without the proper odds a fold is best. If you call the flop and miss the turn what happens? I think this is a weak line to take in the hand especially when you don't have odds to call.
    • Laurenz1988
      Laurenz1988
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.09.2007 Posts: 180
      I dont wanna be an ass or something, but if ur playing 200NL, u really shouldnt be asking these questions. This is really standard call since u got implied and the nut draw. U might even raise if u think his bet is weak and as a semibluff.
    • Timor83
      Timor83
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2007 Posts: 2,793
      I'd raise preflop, but that's just my playing style, so it's no big deal that you didn't.
      Bet the flop as a semibluff. Nobody is showing strength. As played, I'd call the flopbet any day of the week. Your odds of either improving or bluffing him out of the hand are more than good enough.
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Originally posted by Laurenz1988
      I dont wanna be an ass or something, but if ur playing 200NL, u really shouldnt be asking these questions. This is really standard call since u got implied and the nut draw....
      Whether you play NL5 or NL5000 there are no stupid questions and nothing is "standard". We are here to discuss strategies and understand the game. So stop acting like a poker pro and try to help others.

      Puschkin81
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      Yeah, thanks for that Puschkin.

      Laurenz, I think that sometimes it is interesting to pose questions for discussion. As you can see by the results here, there are different opinions on what should be done in this situation. I have my own, and indeed, took my preferred action, but I thought it made a nice point for inquiry.
    • pawlitschek
      pawlitschek
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.10.2007 Posts: 616
      I'd had made a half pot size bet out of position, in position I would have minimum raised his raise and hope to get a free card on the river, if turn was no good. Since you checked and he bet pot size it's a clear fold to me because you are out of position and it's very likely he has the ace, so your outs are (in the best case) 4 eights and 4 kings, 8 outs, out of 19 left cards in the deck... it is very likely that many eights and kings are mucked hands of others players. in my opinion definetly a fold the way you played it.
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Hi pawlitschek!

      Just to make it clear: We have 8 outs which would help us. There are 47 unknown cards (not 19), which means 39 cards don't help us.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • brett1985
      brett1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 33
      Originally posted by Laurenz1988
      I dont wanna be an ass or something, but if ur playing 200NL, u really shouldnt be asking these questions. This is really standard call since u got implied and the nut draw. U might even raise if u think his bet is weak and as a semibluff.
      Can't see there being 'great implied odds' against say a solid opponent when you call and an 8 hits the board and there is 3 to a straight 89T. This is a very marginal situation imo so its slightly OTT to be talking about the limits people should and should not be playing.