Serious Leak - Non Showdown Losses are Huge!!!

    • Taswell
      Taswell
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.08.2007 Posts: 81
      Hi

      I have lost 40 BI playing nl5 full ring over 23k hands. I believe this is a serious leak for me.

      I know it is difficult to pin point the exact reasons but if anyone has suggestions about where I should be looking to improve this it would be appreciated.

      If you need any other stats then let me know - I have HE Manager.

      BB/100 - 3.14
      VPIP - 15.4
      PFR - 11.2
      3 Bet - 2.2
      WTSD - 24.9
      Won SD - 54.4



      Thanks
  • 13 replies
    • Hajler
      Hajler
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.10.2008 Posts: 270
      Hello,

      I think there are a lot of different opinions on non-showdown winnings, but most people agree that they are greatly affected by your playing style and also the limit you play at. The lower limits generally aren't very aggressive and people also don't really like to fold(which is why people say don't bluff in the micros), and this leads to you generally losing more by folding than you can win back by making others fold. This is especially so in full ring, and I can say that my redline was also always on a steady downhill when I played NL5 as well.

      Thats not to say you don't have a leak and are losing too much by folding, but its hard to make any assumptions based on the few stats you posted. Maybe you could take a screen shot of your HEM or something. Since you are winning I wouldn't worry about it too much though. :f_biggrin:

      Hope it helps.
    • fusionpk
      fusionpk
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,683
      dw about it but you can defo do better than 3bb/100, you might want to 3b a bit more, your 3b range is rly tight and I suspect it is only value hands. Im not saying go crazy aggro because u dont need to but defo widen it up to more like 5%. Worked for me :) Although I played SH.
    • SiXAT
      SiXAT
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.09.2008 Posts: 263
      too big nonshowdown loses imo mean that you arent paying enough attention , probably yyou multitable more tables than you should, pay attention, you can steal blinds(you should actualy), attack nit players, find those that are trying to steal too much from you, maybe some fish that donks a raise with nothing often takes the pot.
      try playing mybe like 1 or 2 tables but play your best and see if you impove.
    • Backcushion
      Backcushion
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 816
      You could post your positional stat page.Also your postflop stats like contibet etc,could then maybe give more tips
    • bradomurder
      bradomurder
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,329
      Your non SD should be negative in 5NL, so it's possibly not a leak.

      Try folding to flop bets with hands that you'll have to fold on the turn river unless the villian always cbets then gives up when he misses. This way you fold smaller pots and it can be good for the redline.
    • fusionpk
      fusionpk
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,683
      hey @ NL2 I lost 45BI in non-sd over 33k hands :) But still beat limit at just over 20bb/100 Hope this helps bro.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Its pretty standard to have negative NSDW in micro's. I had them as well until nl25/50 where people actually start to fold once in a while. You can't have high nsdw if people never fold and many people in micro's can't locate the fold button. But due to the fact they don't fold anything you make a lot more money then you should at showdown.

      But the fact that your winrate is very low for NL5 you definetly have some leaks in your game. Just your 3-bet stat of 2.2 is only QQ+ and AK. So when ever you 3-bet anyone that uses a hud know exactly what hand you have so its harder to get paid off.
    • Alficor1
      Alficor1
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.06.2010 Posts: 7,291
      Originally posted by bradomurder
      Your non SD should be negative in 5NL, so it's possibly not a leak.

      Try folding to flop bets with hands that you'll have to fold on the turn river unless the villian always cbets then gives up when he misses. This way you fold smaller pots and it can be good for the redline.
      Just to show that it's possible to have positive red line, here's my NL5 graph:
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Obviously its possible if you never fold you can't have negative non-showdown winnigs. It might effect your showdown winnings tho.
    • scscpoker
      scscpoker
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.06.2010 Posts: 121
      Originally posted by Alficor1
      Originally posted by bradomurder
      Your non SD should be negative in 5NL, so it's possibly not a leak.

      Try folding to flop bets with hands that you'll have to fold on the turn river unless the villian always cbets then gives up when he misses. This way you fold smaller pots and it can be good for the redline.
      Just to show that it's possible to have positive red line, here's my NL5 graph:
      Can u tell some tips how did u do it? Stats, postflop play, adjusting to opponents..
    • Hajler
      Hajler
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.10.2008 Posts: 270
      Judging from his showdown winnings, I would guess he barrels a lot, especially on the river - when it works he gets a fold, hence the constantly rising red line. He also might be betting too much with made hands and not getting enough value, but its hard to say.

      As I said earlier it is really Dependant on the limit you play and you shouldn't go out of your way to get a positive red line just because its cool or something. Alficor1's graph is pretty awesome though. :f_biggrin:
    • Phgrinder
      Phgrinder
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.02.2009 Posts: 1,002
      just worry about your greenline. if you fix your leaks im pretty sure you'll have the sexy blue and red lines you'd like to achieve in the future.

      green's whats important :D
    • Alficor1
      Alficor1
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.06.2010 Posts: 7,291
      It was at FR.. one of the few things i like about FR is that a ton of players play like 10+ tables. So if you steal their blinds or do some funky stuff to them every orbit, they dont really notice it. And i did a ton of floating as well in spots where you are on the button and CO steals. I called because he's obv stealing and has nothing, called his cbet on the flop because and fired turn..
      And if you happen to play against a guy who plays like 4 tables, steal his blinds too. He'll go on tilt and after 5 orbits he'll 3bet shove with atc right when you have two kings.:D True story.:f_cool:
      What i'd recommend to you the most is to play as many pots in position rather than oop. Try to find an excuse to play IP and an excuse not to play OOP. If you have HEM or something like that, look at your position stats. I bet button and co is the most profitable and blinds are the least!;)
      Stats are: VPIP - 27,9 and PFR - 19,6 (i dont really know which stats interest you apart from these two, tell me and i'll post:) ) Very often my VPIP was higher than the vpip of the other 8 players combined.:f_biggrin:

      Btw i dont play like that anymore. I play much more TAGish and dont bluff at all. I play NL10 SH and my graph looks totally opposite.

      And yeah, focus on green line. It doesnt really matter how you make the moniez, if you're a non sd ninja who bluffs all those calling stations and nits or if you're a rock.:s_biggrin: