I just cant figure out the prob.

    • moovet
      moovet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.01.2009 Posts: 157
      Ive been writing this post for about an hour now, and just when i finished i realized it was a whineing post about bad beats and donkyes. So i deleted it.

      I just had my third attempt in poker (3rd 50$) flushed down the drain, and i just cant figure it out why. My budds play poker online with zero knowledge, i crush them in HU or any kind of pokermath, pokerknowledge or whatever, but still they somehow get to win more then me on NL2 and NL4.

      I put in effort, i play 5 hour sessions just to get enough sample size to analyze it later, i make notes, use pokertools, i never tilt. But there is just some reason why i cant win.
      NL2 is soft, very soft and easy...a lot of maniacs there, i play very tight, i play position, i isolate the really bad fishes and i get beat. They have hands you would never guess they had, its just impossible to read their play, no patterns whatsoever. I tried playing straightforward, just good old aggression when youre ahead but no value there, no one is gonna call your 4 bet with KK...all of my preflop allins were vs. AA and KK, no queens, no ak's, no jacks. Moving in with anything weaker than KK is -ev.

      So i post hands here to see if im the crazy one here or is shoveing with AK normal...coach says i did good. Sometimes i feel like im overestimating them, i just cant see how can someone be so degeneric and raise me allin on draw heavy board, making me fold my set. And then they show me air...then a few hands later on another table some guy shows brilliance by texting a chat message reading my hand correctly on a turn, on a drawless board and folding his set for my full house.

      My question is, what mindset do you have vs NL2/NL5 players? How many of you have donked their BR before "getting there"(NL25<)? What is the thinking process when in a hand (particulary when you multitable and have just a few seconds to respond)

      Soon im getting 50$ from TAF payout, and im seriously considering just rouletting it till i have enough for at least NL10...
  • 18 replies
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      Chances are you are overestimating them! Basically just valuebet the hell out of them, it's all about ABC poker at those limits. No bluffs, just valuebet the hell out of them. Keep doing that whilst playing good solid poker and you WILL make a profit :)
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      I think the worst thing you can do at NL2 or NL5 is try to "read" a player. Mostly play your cards and position and ABC as Wriggers say. Don't try to get too complex or you just end up disapointed. I think playing position is the most important part.
    • pogodon
      pogodon
      Silver
      Joined: 23.07.2010 Posts: 1,213
      ill throw in one little bit of advice, try depositing a larger amount say 500+ you play better when the money has more value to you, i know alot of people who can crush NL10 but cant crush NL2 its simple you play better when it means more also better players are easier to put on a hand <<<,, just my opinion


      and obvious every one doesnt have 500+ to deposit( including me alot) but instead of making 5 deposits of 50 then busting save up for awhile hit the articles and videos hard then hit the tables with a bang
    • wasy8
      wasy8
      Black
      Joined: 29.01.2009 Posts: 1,507
      Originally posted by pogodon
      ill throw in one little bit of advice, try depositing a larger amount say 500+ you play better when the money has more value to you, i know alot of people who can crush NL10 but cant crush NL2 its simple you play better when it means more also better players are easier to put on a hand <<<,, just my opinion
      this is extremely horrible advice. having the money mean something to you doesn't make you play better - it makes you more scared money. one of the nice things about playing micros is that you can start to make that disconnection between money and the game.

      also better players are easier to put on a hand? lol no. TAGfish are easier to put on a hand, better players, if they realize you're good, can start balancing against you and it becomes far more difficult to 'put them on a hand'. also 'putting them on a hand' is a bad mindset while im at it - it is about putting them on a RANGE, not a hand.
    • baghead
      baghead
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.10.2010 Posts: 1
      it sounds like your play maybe a bit predictable mix it up a bit
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      No I don't think you do have to mix it up at all on the Micros. There are very few regs that you will encounter that can predict what you're playing. The very predictable, ABC style of poker works very well up until NL25, which is when you start getting some decent regs playing, then you have to evolve your game.

      And yeah, I will reiterate stevegold's advice on playing position as much as possible, I forgot about it in my post :)
    • moovet
      moovet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.01.2009 Posts: 157
      Why play more in position? Its ABC poker right? If i have something i bet, if i dont i fold regardless of position.
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      Play different hands depending on position. For example, suited connectors don't play well out of position, so when you're UTG fold them, but if you're opening from the Middle positions or later you play them.
    • cauelaratta
      cauelaratta
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2010 Posts: 86
      Hey there. I´ve been going trough the very same problem for months now! I even started a thread about it some time ago, it´s called "stuck in the micros".

      I never got busted, but somehow I´ve managed to stay at the very same place where i began. I´ve been floating with the same bankroll for ages, not winning and not losing much, which I guess is not so bad for someone who is learning. I´ve balanced my game finding some leaks, now it´s a matter of finding out a way to extract more value with the hands I choose to play.

      Anyway, here are a few things that I´ve been trying out lately (PLEASE, IF ANYONE HAS A MORE "PRO" OPINION ON THE FOLLOWING, SHARE WITH US!):

      I´d say playing position is the best advice of all. Be very agressive when in BU and CO, and play specially carefully when not. Be careful not to overestimate some hands when OOP. The hand I´ve lost most money with is AK, because I used to move all in with it all the time. Now I try to play it slowly. Most players do not 3-bet preflop in the micros. They are passive and very scared of preflop raises. So when they do, that´s a sign for trouble... so I almost always fold AK. On the other hand, if you have iniciative and position, AK is a great and easy hand to play.

      Also, I started playing more speculative hands like suited connectors, and I always raise with them in BU or CO (even 3-bet sometimes to gain iniciative).

      Avoid limping. I used to limp with A-small suited all the time hoping for a flush. Now I almost never limp, except with pocket pairs (always) and, eventually, small suited connectors (it´s better to play 56s than TJs, as you´ll realize. the first hand allows you to break bigger hands, while the second one somehow competes with them).

      [[ One doubt I have here: is it right to ALWAYS limp in or call preflop raises (according to the call 20 rule) with small pocket pairs? Lately I feel like I´m throwing some serious money away doing that. ]]

      Always use contibets, they are a very useful tool in this bizarre world of limpers. But don´t overestimate them. Read the article about CBETs again if you´re not so shure, it´s great.

      Finally, something that worked for me but may not be your problem: with time, I found out that I am a very impacient person when I play. If I´m not winning or not getting good starting hands in the right positions, I start to take unnecessary risks. So the way I found to avoid that problem was to increase the number of tables I played in. I play way tighter in 10 tables than I do in 6 (yes, I know that should not happen, but that´s one of my weaknesses). Anyway, if you have trouble waiting for the right moment to play, this might help you to.

      Good luck bro, and don´t give up!
      =)
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      Originally posted by Wriggers
      Play different hands depending on position. For example, suited connectors don't play well out of position, so when you're UTG fold them, but if you're opening from the Middle positions or later you play them.
      +1 Wriggers

      This is a basic principe that's even in your starting hand chart, look it up!
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      Originally posted by cauelaratta
      Hey there. I´ve been going trough the very same problem for months now! I even started a thread about it some time ago, it´s called "stuck in the micros".

      I never got busted, but somehow I´ve managed to stay at the very same place where i began. I´ve been floating with the same bankroll for ages, not winning and not losing much, which I guess is not so bad for someone who is learning. I´ve balanced my game finding some leaks, now it´s a matter of finding out a way to extract more value with the hands I choose to play.

      Anyway, here are a few things that I´ve been trying out lately (PLEASE, IF ANYONE HAS A MORE "PRO" OPINION ON THE FOLLOWING, SHARE WITH US!):

      I´d say playing position is the best advice of all. Be very agressive when in BU and CO, and play specially carefully when not. Be careful not to overestimate some hands when OOP. The hand I´ve lost most money with is AK, because I used to move all in with it all the time. Now I try to play it slowly. Most players do not 3-bet preflop in the micros. They are passive and very scared of preflop raises. So when they do, that´s a sign for trouble... so I almost always fold AK. On the other hand, if you have iniciative and position, AK is a great and easy hand to play.

      Also, I started playing more speculative hands like suited connectors, and I always raise with them in BU or CO (even 3-bet sometimes to gain iniciative).

      Avoid limping. I used to limp with A-small suited all the time hoping for a flush. Now I almost never limp, except with pocket pairs (always) and, eventually, small suited connectors (it´s better to play 56s than TJs, as you´ll realize. the first hand allows you to break bigger hands, while the second one somehow competes with them).

      [[ One doubt I have here: is it right to ALWAYS limp in or call preflop raises (according to the call 20 rule) with small pocket pairs? Lately I feel like I´m throwing some serious money away doing that. ]]

      Always use contibets, they are a very useful tool in this bizarre world of limpers. But don´t overestimate them. Read the article about CBETs again if you´re not so shure, it´s great.

      Finally, something that worked for me but may not be your problem: with time, I found out that I am a very impacient person when I play. If I´m not winning or not getting good starting hands in the right positions, I start to take unnecessary risks. So the way I found to avoid that problem was to increase the number of tables I played in. I play way tighter in 10 tables than I do in 6 (yes, I know that should not happen, but that´s one of my weaknesses). Anyway, if you have trouble waiting for the right moment to play, this might help you to.

      Good luck bro, and don´t give up!
      =)
      Nice post, very nice indeed :) Sounds like you've improved greatly :D One thing though, even with small pocket pairs try to avoid limping if you're first in the pot :) And about that Call20 rule, if it is an opponent you think you can get a lot of money out of when you do flop a set, call every time, if it's a tighter opponent who doesn't leak much money postflop it's fine to fold :) Go with your reads ;) The Call20 is just a guideline for implied odds :)

      Either way, that was an excellent post and I myself have been through everything you explained there :)
    • moovet
      moovet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.01.2009 Posts: 157
      well i know about the importance of position pre flop, wasnt asking about that :)

      my question was directed to postflop game, abc poker = bet when strong, fold when not regardless of position. Cbets are standard ofcourse (against 1 player)...
    • wasy8
      wasy8
      Black
      Joined: 29.01.2009 Posts: 1,507
      Originally posted by moovet
      well i know about the importance of position pre flop, wasnt asking about that :)

      my question was directed to postflop game, abc poker = bet when strong, fold when not regardless of position. Cbets are standard ofcourse (against 1 player)...
      position is definitely far more important postflop than preflop
    • cauelaratta
      cauelaratta
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.02.2010 Posts: 86
      one thing that occured to me now: I´ve never met a player who completely crushed the micros. I search nearly every micro player i run into in PTR and they´re all losers.

      maybe that´s because a player who crushes micros moves up too fast. or maybe that´s because big winrates are not that common in micros, for some reason.

      I´d like to talk to someone who plays micros nowadays and does pretty good at them...
      :s_grin:
    • moovet
      moovet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.01.2009 Posts: 157
      Originally posted by wasy8
      Originally posted by moovet
      well i know about the importance of position pre flop, wasnt asking about that :)

      my question was directed to postflop game, abc poker = bet when strong, fold when not regardless of position. Cbets are standard ofcourse (against 1 player)...
      position is definitely far more important postflop than preflop
      yes i know, but if were playing straight abc poker "bet when strong, fold when not" theres really no need for position postflop
    • wasy8
      wasy8
      Black
      Joined: 29.01.2009 Posts: 1,507
      knowing how strong you are when playing so-called 'abc poker' is far easier when you have position.....are you getting this at all?

      position is important no matter how 'ABC' you want to play. stop ignoring it if you ever want to be a winner in this game at any level.
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      What about when you have a medium strength hand? Such as TPGK? Being in position in this situation is much better than being OOP as you can control the pot a lot easier, you don't want to be getting it all in with this hand so you can check it back instead of having to check it to an opponent who could then bet. What about draws? If you're in position you have the opportunity to catch a free card.

      As wasy8 said, position is much more important postflop, but it begins preflop, hence why I mentioned the suited connectors thing.
    • Bliausmas
      Bliausmas
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 741
      moovet - Indeed you are overestimating your opponents. Folding a set is a fatal mistake in most of the occasions. And if you notice that your opponent is a fish it is virtually impossible to fold a set in microstakes. I mean you're playing way too tight. You give too much credit to your opponents -> you play too tight -> you are losing tons of value -> you cannot make a profit, simple as that.

      About the hand analysis - are you sure that you provide the coaches with as much info as possible? Because if you don't they take into account "the opponent is good" as a default, which may be very far from the truth in most of the occasions. And as we all know the same hand could be played very differently against different opponent types :)

      And that guy with a "superior reading skills" you mentioned isn't such a master IMHO :) It is not so difficult to realize you're beat when you have trips with bad kicker on a paired drawless board. Of course you should give him credit for folding that (many players would just shove here, and I guess I'm not an exception :D ) and make a note about that because he's probably not the type of the opponent you want to make fancy plays with.

      And the last thing - are you using poker tracking tools? If not you should definitely grab some. It prevents you from playing the same against very different players and saves you a lot of value.