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Tilting and loosing money. need advice

    • Remyxas
      Joined: 19.03.2010 Posts: 11
      (First of all if you are lazy reader, I don’t think you can help me. Please be serious and don't post something that has no purpose and can't help me to solve problems I deal with)

      Hi guys,

      I decided to create this topic and talk about my problems because I am looking for some advices from You. I need to recover and change my mindset. Most of you will think I am another usual guy who is crying in forum after tilting and losing money. But I need to discus it in some way. So I wrote here facts, my thinking and decisions during 10 month I have been playing poker. (Sorry for grammar mistakes. )

      -I started with $50 capital on Full Tilt and played 1-2 tables of $1.1-$2.25 9man S&G.I learned S&G basics from and Collin Moshman’s book "Sit N Go Strategy".
      -It took me about 2 month to build up my bankroll to $100.
      -Depending on time I have been playing and small profit I decided to start playing $1.10-$2.25 27man S&Gs. I was looking for way to make more money. I red all 3 Harrington's books about tournament play (which helped become better in hand reading ), few Phil Gordon's books and few others.
      -After about 2 month my bankroll went up to about $200.
      - I started playing cash micro stakes. When I saw that 1-2, 2-5 cents so fishy (people don’t respect my raises/reraises) I moved up to 5/10 cents. In two days I lost $100. It was a first big downswing.
      - I made one week brake. After that I played 1-2tables $2.20 27man S&Gs but still looked for more profit and with $150 bankroll started playing $5.50 27man S&G. I wasn’t experienced in that limits. So shortly, downswing to $50 and then up to $200 at the end of the summer.
      -Again made a small brake away from poker. In Autumn I played randomly: $2.20 and $5.50 buy in 27-45man S&G. Bank roll became $250- the biggest I have ever had. I was thinking what to do next
      -During holydays I played in some live tournaments (50-180 people). It was very interesting when people talked how they make money playing online in limits like $10 or higher. I looked at my friend who plays poker one and half a year won enough money and bought a car. I thought, well it is about 8-9 month I have been playing poker, so I can do something like that, too.
      -And then $10 dollars buy in tournaments journey begins with the end you probably can guess and be right. I ned about 10 tables to understand what are differences between $5+50 and $10+1 buy in MTT. Later I cashed in some and I still was in positive thinking about my play. But in all last tournaments I lost most of coin flips (for example AK vs AJ and other better aces against lower aces most of the time) and even with premium pairs against lower pairs. I don’t blame the fate. It is variance and even 1% can win against 99% sometimes.

      -Another brake-maybe 2 weeks away from online poker. And started again.
      -I made $50 on Full Tilt. And my idea was: I am quite experienced in low limits if I had done it before I will done it again. I started multitabling $1.10 9man SnG (4 tables at time) after 1st day (20 tables session) my bankroll was $62. During other 2days I played about 20 tables but still had about $60. I moved to $2.20. Lost half bankroll (reasons: a lot bad luck –premium hands were crushed by fishy, silly hands and probably I was playing bad as chip leader in the bubble).I tilted and lost last money.

      Now I want start again. I am in question what to do different and how to improve my mindset. I know that my mistakes were bankroll management, maybe bad understanding and dealing with variance.
      I am not sad on money. I lost I am sad when thinking about time which I invest to play and minimum profit. Theory and practice improved my game in live tournaments, so I can play much more better and I am having profit from poker literature or video, but it makes me angry when in low limits people play BINGO but nor poker. I think that you need minimum knowledge against such as people. Fishes...You will tell me that from them we gain money. It's true no fishes=no money, but I think that we also loose money when there are too many fishes at the table. Please don’t laugh; it’s my attitude at the moment. Maybe in future I’ll change it if I find way how to deal with all of them.

      So now, if possible, can you tell me:
      The way how to start again? What limits and maybe even site (Maybe pokerstars-more intermediate limits)?
      How to deal with bingo play (as I call) in low limits?
      I think that I need to improve my mindset. What articles, videos, books, can you recommend? Is it good to leave poker theory books aside and read about mindset in my situation?
      And there is my main problem. I feel bad when think about time I spent playing poker and my profit. What to do with this?

  • 8 replies
    • londonsystem
      Joined: 19.11.2008 Posts: 747

      Your journey sounds really simiar to me. Grinding for weeks or monthes, try one level higher, lose big, change games and lose again, grind, repeat.

      I'm not out of it yet, but it's 3rd cycle now (steady up, big down). What I found is that when there are comfortable tables, you should stay there, and try the next one using a set-aside BR only. My first downswing ate up 70% of my bankroll, second one was 25%, now the third one I had recently was only 12%.

      The first time, I tried the next level, lost big, and to recover, tried one above that. Stupid. Second time, I tried next level till I lost all that I set aside for 'trying' which was 25%. This time, I still keep playing the level I win, and trying 15% of my BR for the next level.

      I found that even one level above in micro, the play level is quite different. They detect when you're cbetting to gain info and slap you with 3-bet or 4-bet, and somehow they smell your bluff. I should have developed some leaks in my current level. I'm positive that I could find and plug some in each cycle.

      If you're winning in SNGs, keep it running and try 10-20% of BR to something you want to play - higher BI SNG, MTT or cash. However, what I know? I'm another fish.
    • Remyxas
      Joined: 19.03.2010 Posts: 11
      I was thinking about buying SnG Wizard or cheaper choice SnG Power Tool. Do you use anyone of these?
    • londonsystem
      Joined: 19.11.2008 Posts: 747
      When I played DoN SNGs I tested SNG Wizard trial. It is really a good tool as it could scan your hand history and tell the recommended move in ICM strategy.

      I didn't buy it though, as DoN was not relying on ICM that much, or I thought so. I believe PokerStrategy has cheaper verision of ICM tool. The basic idea is the same, but those two tools could import your own hand history. First try the trials.
    • Wriggers
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      I've got to say, the part about moving up so the players will respect your raises is not the right attitude. You even mentioned it in your post, the fishes on NL2/5 are unbelievably easy to beat. You're right, you do need minimum knowledge to beat them, so do just that. Don't bluff, just play for value and take everything they have at the table :D

      I wouldn't suggest starting at cash on the intermediate levels, playing at NL2 and NL5 will give you a lot of experience and help your mindset a lot, it will also be the beginning of the process of detatching yourself from the money at the table (Due to it being an insignificant $2) which will undoubtedly help you on the higher limits :)
    • MatejM47
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Well i was kinda like you when i started out earlier this year, changing games, trying out different types of poker, everything from sngs, mtts , hu cash bbs sss and i think its definetly good to try out everything to see what fits you best.

      But sooner or later if you really want to improve you really should stick to 1 type of game. If you go for sngs you have to be ready for many suck outs. SnG is just way more swingy compared to cash games.

      Personally i play SH cash games now and i can tell you that we don't lose money when there are to many fishes at a table. Once you move up the limits your very happy to have at least 1 super fishy guy at the table. And there is no difference in fishes playing nl2 or fish playing nl50. Fish is a fish and generally they're the same no matter what limit they're playing. The only difference between NL2 and NL50 is that on NL2 there's 6 fishes on the table while on NL50 you'll only have 1 or 2 of them waiting to give you their money.

      There obviously are different types of fishes and different ways to get their money. If a fish is never folding anything, then don't bluff him just value town him when you have a hand, if his the type to call everything preflop and fold everytimes he misses, just iso him wide and take it down on the flop. Its not fishes mistake to call you down with his bottom pair since well, his a fish and that's how he plays. Its your mistake that you tried to bluff this type of opponent. There is no point in blaming the fish for losing your money since you didn't adapt to your opponent.
    • Hajler
      Joined: 21.10.2008 Posts: 270
      Hey man it could be worse, at least you aren't losing money! :f_biggrin:

      But jokes aside, it sounds like you have some mindset issues as you stated. I would recommend you read The Poker Mindset, it will probably help you a lot. Recognize that you probably aren't as good as you think you are and dedicate yourself to improvement.

      If you are going to re-deposit try to stick with your best game and play with proper BRM. In regards to what you call "bingo play," I think MatejM47's post is spot on. You really only have yourself to blame for failing to adapt and losing to bad players, and you should realize that these are exactly the people you want to be playing with.

      Anyways I wish you good luck, just keep working hard on improving and results will follow.
    • gadget51
      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      Well, I think all we micro-players know what you mean when you describe 'bingo' players. It can be so frustrating hearing about people winning $xxx at NL4 whilst you seem to be losing, yet playing what you consider to be 'proper' poker.

      However, it seems to me from your post that you have lost your way somewhat but have at least recognized that, which is a major positive.

      As to where to start, I suggest taking a few steps backwards initially. If you are depositing make it a small amount - apparently $50 is seems to be the recommendation if you can afford that much.
      I would suggest NL2 full ring Big Stack Strategy, rather than SnGs as according to what I've heard from more experinced SnG grinders the variance can be high (I don't play SnGs much). Use the starting hand chart supplied by, enabling you to make correct [and profitable :) ] decisions preflop; and of course the postflop decisions are - mostly- less complicated in full ring games at this level. Play tight and get to know your Pot Odds, this will enable you to give the wrong odds for them to call continuation bets most times, so they need to get lucky.
      It's a bit slow, but don't start playing 304 tables until you absolutely know what your about! Play one until you get it right and add them as you feel more comfortable with your decisions (win or lose).

      It would be a very rare occurrence for me to tilt; and then it only lasts for maybe one hand, but even that can be expensive, especially multi-tabling.
      What helped me more than anything else - and I wouldn't disparage any suggestions of books etc., though I haven't read any - were the coaches on here. I've watched Hasenbraten getting called all in for $50 by a guy drawing to 2 outs with 2 cards to come and them hitting both of them. I've watched Chenny8888 getting sucked out on 6 SnGs in a row, bubbling 3 by ridiculous play (ers). Did they moan, cry, tilt? NO! Why not? Because they KNEW they had made the correct decision for that particular situation, the only thing they didn't/can't control was the deal. They are very calm in adversity, something I took a while to catch on to I admit. Making correct decisions = less tilt.
      Oh and if you watch the coaching sessions I have no doubt the coaches will help with mindset as well, just ask.
      So there in lies the nub I think. Learn at stakes that are very comfortable against weak opposition. Learn this; 'Decision Correct, Result Irrelevant.'

      My Bankroll is currently about $450 but I still play NL4 full ring mostly because I'm still learning, even though I run over this level.

      Something to note on fish. The same fish you crush at NL4 may play different at NL10 for various reasons outside the scope of this subject.
      Anyway, hope I didn't waffle too much and at least some of my drivel was useful.
      I'd wish you good luck, but when someone says that to me I usually reply 'It's them who need luck, not me!' Lol.
    • jass1960
      Joined: 15.04.2010 Posts: 709
      Originally posted by gadget51

      So there in lies the nub I think. Learn at stakes that are very comfortable against weak opposition. Learn this; 'Decision Correct, Result Irrelevant.'

      + 1

      Took me a while to realise decision first - result second!

      Jass :D