Do we Really Need HUDS?

    • drakudemine
      drakudemine
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.08.2010 Posts: 9
      I used to use PokerTracker a little and that HUD does bring in some information but do we really need a HUD?

      In my view, if we use HUDs too much we will end up being bad players as all we do is make decissions based on some numbers of different hands we played with that guy in the past. If he is a good player he will probably vary his play a lot and we will not get much information out of that. For instance, let us think about Barry Greenstein. All people know that he always C-Bets but we never get to know when he is bluffing with that C-bet or does have the goods. The HUD will say that he often C-bets but what information does that actually give.

      Isn't it much more important to simply look at the tables that we play in and see how the players play at that particular point in time? One day I might be highly aggressive and in another day super tight. My stats will show something else and the guy that trusts the HUD can get really destroyed.

      What do you think about these HUDs? I believe that we should not use them. Tracking hands and analyzing them is something else.
  • 16 replies
    • TheSenseman
      TheSenseman
      Silver
      Joined: 14.03.2008 Posts: 26,099
      Originally posted by drakudemine
      In my view, if we use HUDs too much we will end up being bad players as all we do is make decissions based on some numbers of different hands we played with that guy in the past. If he is a good player he will probably vary his play a lot and we will not get much information out of that.
      That is why you most highstakes players do not use a HUD. You need to know that the average micro/lowlimit-player does not really know how to adapt on others.

      Originally posted by drakudemine
      All people know that he always C-Bets but we never get to know when he is bluffing with that C-bet or does have the goods. The HUD will say that he often C-bets but what information does that actually give.
      Right, but you know his preflop raising range and you see the flop, so it is possible to get a feeling about the ratio between nuthands and bluffs.
    • scscpoker
      scscpoker
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.06.2010 Posts: 121
      Ah so you think every online player ABSOLUTELY changes his style in matter of days? Most of them are easily exploitable and are playing their A-game same way.

      He always c-bets but you dont know if he is bluffing? lol, u know opponent hits pair 1/3 times and he can have pocket pair.. If there arent ANY other patterns, u can know that about half times it IS bluff and about half times it ISNT. so when it IS (and you continue playing), he pays you, and if he isnt bluffing, then he is maybe as strong as you and u continue playing him postflop..
      You can also see how often he does win in showdown, how often he SECOND-BARRELS (so if he doesnt, u can float him..), how is his overall aggression/fold equity..

      For sure there are players who change their style - its YOUR JOB to read them and see how does they play (you can see their AVERAGE in HUD, so if his average C-bet is 75%, he can be C-betting 100% one day, 50% other day, if u keep playing like he c-bet 75% its not too -EV, in average u have same results, and if u can READ him more correctly then u can take even bigger advantage over him..

      Also, opponents can decide in critical moments by reading YOUR stats, that is your goal to know if he does that.. if he does, then read own stats and decide by it..

      - HUD is not something that tells u ALL information about opponent, u must always read him by yourself too, it just helps in critical moments to see for example if he steals a lot - to see if u can play AJ profitably against him postflop, or if he FOLDS to 3-bets, if he 4-bets non-premium hands... those informations are really important for every poker player. You cant just look at your QQ and face 5-bet without any problem against "random opponent".

      (Btw. IMO there should be some HUD filter to see only hands opponent played against me too)
    • fuzzyfish
      fuzzyfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.01.2010 Posts: 862
      HUD-s are bad, M'kay
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Well if the guy has 90% fold 2 3-bet then this is obviously a helpful stat that you won't get that easy when you multitable since you don't pay attention to every single opponent at your table. I agree that you don't really need a hud if you play 4 tables or less.

      If he has c-bet % of 100% you don't know when his bluffing, but you do know his bluffing about 66% of the time he doesn't make a hand, which means this type of opponent is profitable to c/r or float.

      You don't base your play only depending on your stats, but also reads you gather on a player.
    • ihufa
      ihufa
      Gold
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      A hud is just a bunch of information that you can chose to use or not use. I don't see how having access to it can harm your game unless you let it.
    • drakudemine
      drakudemine
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.08.2010 Posts: 9
      Huds can provide an edge when multi tabling but still, my point was that using such HUDS will damage our overall game in the sense that we are used to use them. When we sit down at a real table or go play a live tournament we do not have HUDs. That is why I believe that we are better off not getting used to such huds. Even low limit players will try to play in a casino from time to time and if they do not have their precious HUD they will be eaten alive.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by drakudemine
      Huds can provide an edge when multi tabling but still, my point was that using such HUDS will damage our overall game in the sense that we are used to use them. When we sit down at a real table or go play a live tournament we do not have HUDs. That is why I believe that we are better off not getting used to such huds. Even low limit players will try to play in a casino from time to time and if they do not have their precious HUD they will be eaten alive.

      Uhm, so you're saying live players are better than online players?
    • i5bet72o
      i5bet72o
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,615
      I use A HUD to get the general idea of my opponent (anyone who has a VPIP >25 in FR is a fish and anyone who has a >10 difference between VPIP and PFR is a station. A HUD is sooo useful when masstabling b/c u need to play very different vs a fish compared to a reg
    • Berzerger
      Berzerger
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.03.2008 Posts: 910
      Originally posted by drakudemine
      Even low limit players will try to play in a casino from time to time and if they do not have their precious HUD they will be eaten alive.
      This would be true for a player who uses statistics without understanding what they mean, which would render them useless to begin with.
    • pogodon
      pogodon
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2010 Posts: 1,210
      i dont like the whole concept of hoods either, but thats just online poker its different. there is poker rooms were hood is banned if you dont like it
    • fuzzyfish
      fuzzyfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.01.2010 Posts: 862
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Uhm, so you're saying live players are better than online players?
      I know them babyfaced online players. They don't have a proper cowboy hat, they don't know how to appreciate a glass of good whiskey and they don't know that staring and mumbling are key aspects of poker success. They don't even know how to react when an opponent pulls the gun or grabs the money and vanishes into the night of prairie, yet they think they know all about poker. Scum.
    • Alficor1
      Alficor1
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.06.2010 Posts: 7,291
      Originally posted by drakudemine
      Huds can provide an edge when multi tabling but still, my point was that using such HUDS will damage our overall game in the sense that we are used to use them. When we sit down at a real table or go play a live tournament we do not have HUDs. That is why I believe that we are better off not getting used to such huds. Even low limit players will try to play in a casino from time to time and if they do not have their precious HUD they will be eaten alive.
      Well yeah, but when you play live you play just one table, so you're up against max 8 players. If i played online just 1 table, i wouldnt need a HUD either.
    • gavinonymous
      gavinonymous
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2008 Posts: 1,146
      I think huds are more useful for mass multitabling where it's difficult to follow all the action nearly as you would one or two tabling.

      I also prefer not to use one unless I'm grinding - also if the HUD freezes up, all your tables can freeze up easily - a tilt factor
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by drakudemine
      Huds can provide an edge when multi tabling but still, my point was that using such HUDS will damage our overall game in the sense that we are used to use them. When we sit down at a real table or go play a live tournament we do not have HUDs. That is why I believe that we are better off not getting used to such huds. Even low limit players will try to play in a casino from time to time and if they do not have their precious HUD they will be eaten alive.
      Well when you play live you have to study 5-8 players at your table, while playing 12 tables FR online you have at least 50 different opponents. You can't pay close attention to every hand they play as you can do while playing live when you don't have anything better to do when your not in a hand. You also have other tells in live poker that you can't use online.
    • andreibalint
      andreibalint
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.04.2009 Posts: 872
      Do we really need glasses?
    • opal99
      opal99
      Black
      Joined: 05.02.2008 Posts: 8,270
      @ the original question: No, but it's +EV, therofore not using it is not optimal... easy game :f_cool: