wow huge bad beat 23 players left

    • Sk8Surf
      Sk8Surf
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.06.2007 Posts: 24
      wow its unreal some of the horrible player s that play online poker sometimes , they just make me sick of getting bad beat when you play a tourny for hours and get bad beat by some player that goes pushs you allin with hand that is completly usless and crushed .i was in tourny at fulltilt poker with 23 players left i have 77 in late pos i raise too 10,000 chips guy in BB calls blinds are 2500 5000 . i bet 15,000 chip s on flop guy goes over me putting me allin . i call cause ive seen this guy is a donkey . the flop is 10 of spades 2 of hearts and 6 hearts i insta call this guy he turns over 23 off im so far a heads it not even funny . the turn card is 2 of clubs guy puts me out in pot for about 90,000+ chips with 23 players left , i dont get how you risk everything on a hand like that when you 10 players or so from the last table . in which first place is 1256$ man if i played this hand wrong well was my own fault but i think i made the right play . in any case now im sitting here watching this horrible player play in tourny too the last table and probably place top 5 because of his horrible play when he should be out lol . the diff in the place i had and what last table is so huge its not funny but 20 bucks i guess is better then 0$ lol was hoping to last table with my second tourny on Full Tilt from the bank roll that pokerstrategy hooked me up with would have been sweet .ahh well always next time . GL all
  • 23 replies
    • logitechzen
      logitechzen
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.06.2007 Posts: 90
      EH? that wasnt that bad anywayz, it was like 1 to 5, pretty common in tourneys to go out like that :D . Who said poker was sopposed to be fair?

      Cant take the heat?play cashgames instead, that's what I do.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      i don't think it's so much how much of a bad beat it was... more so how bad a call/bet his opponent made. obviously he would've been further ahead if they shared the same pair.. it's more that some retard was willing to risk his tournament life on bottom pair...
    • brett1985
      brett1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 33
      Late Position with 77 pot of 90k so stacks were 45k each approx at start of play

      Blinds 2500/5000.

      Less than 10bb in your stack, standard play is to move all in pre flop.
    • Rushinrogan
      Rushinrogan
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 15
      Have to agree with Brett on this one. If your gonna make a play, at that stage of a tourney, then you have to go all in. Or at least a bigger raise then you did. Personally i'm not sure i would've played it at all ,and if i did i would've folded. as soon as he started raising the roof off.Weather you thought him a donkey or not, you still did'nt know what he was holding. Remember, he's already called your raise so you have to assume he's holding something. Looking at the flop, theres a 10 out. Two 10's beat 7's. He could be on a flush draw or have trips. You know what your holding , 77, and you know that the flop has'nt improved your hand. But did it improve his and if so how ?
      You say he was a donkey. I don't know how many were in the tourney but he must be a lucky donkey to get as far as the last 23. Take a look at it from his point of view. He's BB, i assume everybody else has folded, and all you do is double the BB. That bets smacks of someone trying to steal the blinds. So he's thinking i call your bluff and see the flop. If he catches nothing then he folds but he does,nt. He catches a pair, albeit the lowest. You bet but not big enough to suggest you caught a set. So maybe he's thinking your holding high cards and with only the 4th and the river to go he's thinking the odds are in is favour. So he takes a huge gamble and goes all in. He was probably thinking you'd fold. And the rest, as they say, is history.
      Yes his play was dumb and yes he got lucky, but thats poker. But i think you were too cautious and gave him the opportunity to get in the back door rather than slamming firmly in his face.
      One more thing. You say you had been watching him. But, don't forget, he was watching you too.
      Better luck next time and i hope you land a big one. Cheers...Rush
    • brett1985
      brett1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 33
      I agree Rush. Even a Donkey can hit a hand. Bad players can do well in tournaments and I have no doubt this opponent was a poor player. That doesn't mean he couldn't have paired his ten.

      The only thing I disagree about is folding 77. I'd always play it and always move all in. On the flop it doesn't play so well if overcards fall. With only 9bb left there is hardly room for any play on the flop anyway. I move all in preflop because I am on the button with 2 players left to act. The chances that either one of them has a better hand than 77 is extremely low and at this stage I would be welcoming a call from AJ etc where I would be the favorite.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      please download the ICM trainer on this site and practice a couple of examples. you should be shoving/calling slightly tighter in an MTT, but pleaaaaaase learn ICM play. so so so so important
    • Rushinrogan
      Rushinrogan
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 15
      Hey Brett.
      I was'nt saying that i would'nt go all in a 77 in that position. But first i would evaluate the player i'm up against, the state of play, position and stack size just to name but a few. The problem i have is that too many players over value a low/mid pair. I've seen it so many times. Somebody is dealt a pocket pair in the low to mid range. The more they look at it the more it looks unbeatable.They go all in. From my experience they, more often than not, are beaten by someone holding two high cards who make a pair.
      In this case i would've folded. He says he was playing against a known donkey.If this is the case he is unpredictable. You just don't know what he's going to do. On top of that he could be holding anything.Remember there are six cards higher than 7 and if he's holding two of them then he's chance of landing a
      pair have just doubled. As for the stack size,i gather they were roughly equal or the donkey held more. So why risk it against a unpredictable donkey who holds more chips ? I'd rather wait for a better opportunity or at least take it against a short stack.
      Don't get me wrong. My natural game is to play tight and 77 for an aggressive player is a very playable hand. If this the case then he should have raised all in. But was it worth risking your stack just win the blinds ? Not for me.
      Cheers.....Rush
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      i can't disagree with you more rushinrogan. i'm not even going to say "hey you have a right to your point of view, yada yada". you're plain and simply wrong. there is no excuse/reason for folding 77 here, and mathematically speaking, winning the blinds IS (very easily) worth the risk.

      put simply and less offensively, if you have any idea of ICM, the correct move is to move directly all-in preflop for maximum fold equity yada yada. no question about it.
    • Rushinrogan
      Rushinrogan
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 15
      Chenny, i thought the idea of this forum was to share ideas and opinions even if you don't agree with everything you read. Unlike yourself, i do believe you have the right to your opinion and do i respect them.
      If you wish to play your game by pure mathematics then thats your right. Obviously it must work for you but i just happen to believe theres more to the game than what a calculator tells me.
      Just as an aside, how do you fare in tournament play ? I've tried to find your stats but they don't appear anywhere. That is apart from a couple of freerolls.
      Have a nice day.....Rush
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      hav0cNZ on iPoker (titanpoker). also some stats on fulltilt but that is only 7 games, 4 of which i disconnected from. i'm doing OK. yourself?

      sorry for sounding so rude earlier, but when you get to such a shortstack stage of the tournament, there is no other way to play 77.
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      your story doesnt make any sense rogan, chenny is 100% right. Esp in a mtt.
    • whipflip15
      whipflip15
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.11.2006 Posts: 284
      Yeah if i were first in on the button it would always be a push. Even if i had Negreanu and Ivey in the blinds FULL STOP Against a limper i would play it different but i would fold to any raise, even a minraise from CO. But play as you will better for me.
    • Rushinrogan
      Rushinrogan
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 15
      Ok, there seems to be some misunderstanding about what i'm trying to say. First off, i'm not trying to tell any stories. I'm just trying to explain my train of thought in any given situation . Maybe i not good at explaining myself. I'll try putting it another way.
      If you play the conventional way, hand odds, the unwritten book of poker rules etc, etc.... then you have to play this hand. And, if you are going to play this hand then you have to go all in. Well, at least you do in this position at this particular stage of a tourney. With that, i have no argument.
      Alas, i don't do conventional. I'm not saying i would'nt ever play this hand this way. I just believe, in any given situation, theres alot more factors involved than just what a calculator tells me my %'s are. There are times when playing the man and the situation is equally important than playing the cards you hold. In recent times i've folded kk pre flop and gone all in 33 pre flop. In both cases i made the right decision. The former would've cost me $215 if i'd played.
      To sum up, if we all played in the conventional way then the game would be very boring and we'd all take turns at winning. Everytime you'd bet we would know, roughly, what you were holding and no one would ever bluff.
      Everyone has there own style. You just have to find yours. And, i'm not advocating anyone follows mine. I have my own and it works for me. For example, i've tried cash games and i can't do it .No matter how i play or what rules i follow, i lose. The $50 bankroll i was given 2 weeks ago nearly went west playing cash games. I was down to $10 before i decided to switch back to SNG and tourneys. Thank god i did. Because, not only did i get back the original $50 but i've managed to quadruple it
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      There are times when playing the man and the situation is equally important than playing the cards you hold.


      not in this situation, if a move is +ev$, then there is NO situation in which you should fold. Don't try to be the wise guy now, because there is only ONE right way to play this hand, and if you think there are more, then please play against me.

      In recent times i've folded kk pre flop


      thats only smart if 4 people go all in in front of you, and even in that case it's marginal. Don't act like you can predict what hands your opponent has in a internet poker game, because you can't. Folding kk is not a good move 96 percent of the time. It's impossible to predict when it is the right move.

      The $50 bankroll i was given 2 weeks ago nearly went west playing cash games.


      that's weird, with your playing style, how could that happen???
    • Rushinrogan
      Rushinrogan
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 15
      helemaalnicks, i'm not trying to be a wiseguy. I was just offering another point of view. After all, that is the point of a forum. If you don't like what i say then you have the right to disagree. But if it upsets you, as much as it seems to, then i suggest you ignore me and everything i say and move on.
      But to reply to your points. The second quote you used relates to the 1st. So why would i fold KK ?
      The situation was, $3 qualifier to P.Stars Sunday millons. 160 starters with 8 to qualify. We're down to the final table and i'm dealt kk.The stacks are roughly,
      P1 - 150k
      P2 - 70k
      Rush - 10k
      P4 120k
      P5 - 50k
      P6- 5k
      P7 - 12k
      P8 - 7k
      P9 - 1k
      P1 opens with a raise of 10k and P2 calls. For me to call i have to go all in. Is it worth it ? No. Since reaching the final table, P6 & P9 have totally shut up shop and not played a hand despite their stacks getting blinded away. P4 calls anything and P6 has tried to be aggressive but lost a couple of hands so he too has shut up shop. With this raise P9, whos on the bubble, has to go all in or get blinded out. There is no point getting into a bun fight when there was no need. True to form P9 folded and shortly after was blinded out having never played a hand. As for the result P1 - AK h P2 - AJ o. P2 flops a straight but P1 takes the pot with a flush. As i said, each situation demands different stratargy regardless of what the maths say.So what would've you have done?
      As for the 33 that was easy. I'm sb and chip leader.BB is short stacked. Easy call to go all in and force him otherwise he's as good as dead.He calls with 78 suited but my pair hold.
      Now for cash games. I know my strenghs and cash games ain't one of them. For some reason i have trouble playing with cash as opposed to chips.I'm quite happy to buy into a $20 SnG but watching my $5 on cash table getting whittled away i find hard. It's proberbly a mental barrier i have to overcome and hopefully in time i will.
      As for playing you, i'd be more than happy too. I've scoped you out, at Titan, and i really really really want to play you...!! Alas, i play on Full Tilt and not Titan. But feel free to scope me. You'll find me under Rushinrogan1 at F.Tilt. In the meantime you have nice day and pleeeeeeeas try to relax.
      Cheers Rush
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      lol @ you scopin me at titan, you forgot to ask what my interpokerbankroll is like though. Would you still play nl10 with 50$ if you had 1500$ on another platform? i guess not.

      Im not upset, just dont like people talkin about folding kk on ps-forums, thats all. The situation you described explains the fold off course, but thats a VEEEERY unlikely event, so a description of that wouldve been nice, there are people who are reading this who think they have to learn from your post, and might think they have to fold kk on an instant all in in front or sumtin, which wouldnt be nice.

      about the 33 hand, i never said 33 isnt all in, icm makes that you judge differently, and off course 33 is a good holding in certain situations, lol at people who call with those hands at that stage of a tourney.

      tbh, sss isnt my favourite either. I just began playing bss and that comes a lot closer then tourney then i thought. Maybe you should give that a try when you build a big buffer on your br, it opened my eyes.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      don't think anyone's particularly angry...

      you're 100% correct about how you played that KK hand, an AA would also be a fold in that situation.

      but in the example given, 77 is an easy all-in. sorry.

      I know what you mean by people sometimes playing the exact same way in poker. I don't like it either; i like original plays, making check/raise bluffs, floating, etc. and lots of other plays that are far from standard. And it really bores me when I get to the later stages of SNG/MTT and have to play this way, but there really is no other choice at this stage of the game.. you must play according to ICM, with very few deviations. This is why I prefer deepstack tournaments, where the actual ICM play is very limited.
    • brett1985
      brett1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 33
      Originally posted by Rushinrogan
      Hey Brett.
      I was'nt saying that i would'nt go all in a 77 in that position. But first i would evaluate the player i'm up against, the state of play, position and stack size just to name but a few. The problem i have is that too many players over value a low/mid pair. I've seen it so many times. Somebody is dealt a pocket pair in the low to mid range. The more they look at it the more it looks unbeatable.They go all in. From my experience they, more often than not, are beaten by someone holding two high cards who make a pair.
      In this case i would've folded. He says he was playing against a known donkey.If this is the case he is unpredictable. You just don't know what he's going to do. On top of that he could be holding anything.Remember there are six cards higher than 7 and if he's holding two of them then he's chance of landing a
      pair have just doubled. As for the stack size,i gather they were roughly equal or the donkey held more. So why risk it against a unpredictable donkey who holds more chips ? I'd rather wait for a better opportunity or at least take it against a short stack.
      Don't get me wrong. My natural game is to play tight and 77 for an aggressive player is a very playable hand. If this the case then he should have raised all in. But was it worth risking your stack just win the blinds ? Not for me.
      Cheers.....Rush
      You speak about evaluating the play taking into account multiple factors. That is correct. But realize that once that is done, in this position, with this stack size, with two opponents holding random cards and with being 23rd our only move is an all in.

      You present hypothetical situations about overvaluing middle pairs but they simply don't apply here.

      The fact the player is a donkey makes a call even more tempting because we will have most of his range crushed and will likely double through him.

      There is no time to wait for a better opportunity. It is mathematically correct to go all in here and that is why any procrastinating on the matter has been met with some abrupt responses. Some quick calculations on pokerstove to illustrate the point.

      Pretend I am the big blind for a moment and that the small blind always folds. My range for calling is quite small . AK+, TT+ (this could vary if I thought you were very loose etc). In essence you would take down the blinds 95%+ of the time. This is clearly +ev as you would take 15k in blinds 9.5 times/10. The rest of the time 0.5% you would be an underdog to TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA (40 different combinations of hands there) but a small favorite against AK (16 combinations). You still have a small chance to win against the overcards).

      Even allowing for the small blind to have a hand our chances of stealing the blinds alone against two solid tight players would be 90% or so. I think you will now see that this clearly points to an all in.

      In this case you worry that our opponent is not such a solid player and is more likely to call. Supposing he will call with any two cards. Should we make the move. Well we will never steal the blinds as he will call. According to pokerstove our 77 against a random hand has a 66% chance of winning. Compare this to the pot odds which is I recall correctly offer 105k to 45k it is entirely clear what the correct play is. We only have to win the hand 43% of the time to make the move +ev while we actually stand to win 66% of the time.

      Suppose opponent will call with 50% of all possible hands. The we have 58% chance of winning when as illustrated above it need only be 43% to be a profitable play. But in fact, you have to remember the additional factor that the 50% of the time he doesn't call we steal the blinds. This actually means that we aren't required to win 43% of the time for this play to be profitable, it may be much lower.

      I am by no means a poker expert and stand to make mistakes but I hope the above makes sense. Tournament Poker For Advanced Players is a book I recommend which deals with the above. The only time you might ignore the maths is when some situation occurs eg you are in 9th place and 2 people have only 5k chips left ie a laddering situation. In this particular hand only the math applies.
    • Rushinrogan
      Rushinrogan
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.11.2007 Posts: 15
      Ok guys, i've had time to think a bit more about this and i have to concede a number of points.
      helemaalnicks, you are absolutely right. To post that it's ok to fold kk without explanation was reckless on a forum such as this.Of course i don't advocate folding such a hand and you are right that this was an exceptional circumstance .As for playing you on your terms? I have no doubt you would enjoy lighten me of my hard earned cash.As i have no doubt you would do it. So for now, i'll pass.
      Brett, i'm well aware of the math and, again, you are right. I've tried to wrack my
      brains as to when i was in a similar position and what i did. On every occasion i think i called all in or at least a sizable raise.So my argument becomes void.
      I'm not above saying when i'm wrong and on this occasion, i'm wrong. No matter how i look at it, the only correct call in this situation is all in. Maybe i look into the game too deeply.
      Anyway, hows this for a touch of irony. Last night i'm in SnG. 90 players, and we're down to the last four. I'm low chip man and BB. The poker gods shine down on me and i'm dealt AA. I'm saved..!! The first 2 fold but SB raises. I go all in and he calls. He busts my A's when the river gives him trips. And what was he holding..?? Yep..77.
      Now what more evidence do i need. ..?????
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