Time for some serious bankroll management

    • Polarbeard
      Polarbeard
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.11.2010 Posts: 13
      Hello everyone,

      I first would like to thank all who contribute to pokerstrategy.com. I have learned more in the last two weeks on this website than I did for the 3 preceeding months (I am pretty new to poker).

      I had to chose William Hill for my starting bankroll as I was already playing the three other poker sites that are offered here.

      There are a few aspects on William Hill that makes it pretty hard to play the shortstack strategy.

      First, all the nl 0.01-0.02 require a minimum buyin of 50 BB. for nl 0.02-0.04, the minimum buyin is $1 (25 BB) and the nl 0.05-0.10 the minimum buyin is $3 (30 BB). As the SSS requires to leave the table when we reach 25 BB, I am not sure if that strategy can be applied there.

      Also, there is a very limited number of tables there and they are usually full of regs with VpIp of 4-8. Might as well tell you that when they play, they have nothing worst than QQ. When one or two fish are playing at a table, there are usually 4-5 players in line to take a seat.

      And the final reason why it seems to be hard to use the SSS there is that when you leave a table, you need to wait a very long period of time before being able to come back unless you bring back the chips you had when you left (wich defeats the idea of SSS).

      To sum it up, my experience there cost me 60% ($30) of my bankroll in 2 weeks. Actually, I have payed 28$ in rake; so in fact, I am pretty even with the players. My biggest losts were due to not fearing enough the nits and the rocks poket overpairs or trips. My TPTK is way -EV there.

      I had the feeling that I played decently and that alot of big pots were taken away from me with a lucky river. I also felt that I had no "donk break" at all (paying the big price for ALL my bad decisions, not getting lucky with one draw).

      But after reviewing my database, I realize that even if I got unlucky on several occasions and that my fishy opponents sucked out on several other occasions, I also played like a fish in many hands (and it made me sick to my stomach).

      Anyway, I realize that this is a pretty long post. So now the important part:

      Having a $20 bankroll (out of my starting $50), I think it's time to play "safe" with my bankroll. And the only way I can think of is to switch to a good SSS strategy. I would like advice on how to adapt it (if it is ever possible) to William Hills pokers site.

      Wich limit should i play? Is it a losing strategy when the table is full of nits and rocks? If i play nl 0.02-0.04, wich lets me come in with the less BB (25) at how many BB should I leave the table?

      Thanks
  • 12 replies
    • Polarbeard
      Polarbeard
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.11.2010 Posts: 13
      Just a few thoughts I had after posting this.

      It cost me 30$ to learn so much that I am not bitter at all. I beleive some top poker coaches charge a few thousand dollars per hour and i doubt that their students would learn as much as I did playing thoses hands!

      I heard alot on boards that "if you can't beat nits, rocks and bots at nl 0.01-0.02, you are not ready for higher stakes.

      Net nl 0.01-0.02 (dollar, pounds and euros) loss: $47.85; hands played: 881

      Net nl 0.02-0.04 and 0.05-0.10 (dollar, pounds and euros) gains: $29.62; hands played: 948

      Yes, I know that samples need to be way larger to be relyable, but I think it demonstrates how much variance will make a player look really good or really bad when he first starts.

      P.S.: I am a pokerstrategy.com silver member, and that alone is worth a fortune!

      P.S.S.: Is Lisa Grant married (disregard this, it's just a joke ;-)
    • AlCaTrAzzALZ
      AlCaTrAzzALZ
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.05.2008 Posts: 726
      how do you lose $47.85 at NL2 in 881 hands? if your running at -20bb/100, maybe you need to stop and read some of the articles again...
    • Polarbeard
      Polarbeard
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.11.2010 Posts: 13
      Give me 10 minutes, I will be back to you with answers;-)
    • Polarbeard
      Polarbeard
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.11.2010 Posts: 13
      Ok, this first one, not bright, but that guy bets with anything and raises with even worst...


      iPoker - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      UTG: $5.75
      UTG+1: $2.00
      MP: $0.94
      MP+1: $0.97
      CO: $2.16
      Hero (BTN): $5.65
      SB: $10.52
      BB: $3.47

      SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

      Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero has 8:spade: K:spade:

      fold, fold, MP calls $0.02, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.02, SB raises to $0.04, fold, MP calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.18, SB calls $0.14, fold

      Flop: ($0.42, 2 players) 9:diamond: 6:diamond: 3:heart:
      SB bets $0.42, Hero raises to $1.68, SB raises to $10.34, Hero calls $3.79

      Turn: ($11.36, 2 players) 4:heart:

      River: ($11.36, 2 players) 5:spade:

      SB shows K:diamond: 4:diamond: (One Pair, Fours)
      SB wins $10.61


      And this one: str flush draw after flop...


      iPoker - £0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      Hero (BTN): £4.01
      SB: £1.26
      BB: £3.15
      UTG: £2.00
      UTG+1: £5.05
      MP: £1.75
      MP+1: £4.40
      CO: £1.28

      SB posts SB £0.01, BB posts BB £0.02

      Pre Flop: (£0.03) Hero has 9:heart: J:heart:

      fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to £0.08, fold, BB raises to £0.14, Hero calls £0.06

      Flop: (£0.29, 2 players) 8:heart: 2:diamond: T:heart:
      BB bets £3.01, Hero calls £3.01

      Turn: (£6.31, 2 players) 9:spade:

      River: (£6.31, 2 players) 6:diamond:

      BB shows K:diamond: K:spade: (One Pair, Kings)
      BB wins £5.89

      And this one, how could I tell?


      iPoker - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      MP+1: $5.00
      LP: $3.24
      CO: $5.18
      BTN: $0.66
      SB: $6.93
      Hero (BB): $5.30
      UTG: $4.68
      UTG+1: $2.00
      MP: $1.03

      SB posts SB $0.01, Hero posts BB $0.02

      Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero has J:club: J:spade:

      UTG raises to $0.08, fold, MP calls $0.08, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to $0.34, Hero calls $0.32, UTG calls $0.26, MP calls $0.26

      Flop: ($1.36, 4 players) 5:heart: T:diamond: 7:diamond:
      SB checks, Hero bets $1.02, UTG raises to $4.34, fold, fold, Hero calls $3.32

      Turn: ($10.04, 2 players) 4:heart:

      River: ($10.04, 2 players) T:club:

      UTG shows Q:diamond: Q:heart: (Two Pair, Queens and Tens)
      UTG wins $9.38


      Famous: I learned about overpairs:


      iPoker - $0.10 NL - Holdem - 9 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      MP+1: $10.00
      LP: $3.72
      CO: $18.06
      BTN: $10.00
      SB: $4.00
      Hero (BB): $10.35
      UTG: $10.54
      UTG+1: $3.05
      MP: $10.00

      SB posts SB $0.05, Hero posts BB $0.10

      Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has A:heart: 7:heart:

      fold, fold, fold, fold, LP raises to $0.40, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.70, LP raises to $3.72, Hero calls $3.02

      Flop: ($7.49, 2 players) 3:club: 7:diamond: 5:heart:

      Turn: ($7.49, 2 players) J:diamond:

      River: ($7.49, 2 players) 4:heart:

      LP shows K:diamond: K:heart: (One Pair, Kings)
      LP wins $7.00


      An other overpair cuttie:


      iPoker - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      MP: $2.00
      Hero (MP+1): $5.85
      LP: $5.32
      CO: $2.34
      BTN: $5.55
      SB: $1.98
      BB: $10.27
      UTG: $5.34
      UTG+1: $4.69

      SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

      Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero has J:heart: J:spade:

      fold, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.02, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.02, SB calls $0.01, BB raises to $0.10, Hero raises to $0.34, fold, fold, BB raises to $1.04, Hero calls $0.70

      Flop: ($2.12, 2 players) 6:heart: K:heart: 3:club:
      BB bets $0.48, Hero calls $0.48

      Turn: ($3.08, 2 players) 5:heart:
      BB bets $1.54, Hero calls $1.54

      River: ($6.16, 2 players) 7:diamond:
      BB checks, Hero checks

      BB shows K:spade: K:club: (Three of a Kind, Kings)
      BB wins $5.75

      Busted flush over the river:


      iPoker - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      UTG: $5.00
      UTG+1: $2.00
      MP: $2.17
      MP+1: $0.54
      Hero (CO): $3.79
      BTN: $12.79
      SB: $1.86
      BB: $1.92

      SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

      Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero has 2:heart: Q:heart:

      fold, fold, fold, MP+1 calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.08, fold, SB calls $0.07, fold, MP+1 calls $0.06

      Flop: ($0.26, 3 players) 5:heart: 7:heart: 6:club:
      SB bets $0.26, fold, Hero calls $0.26

      Turn: ($0.78, 2 players) 6:heart:
      SB bets $0.78, Hero raises to $3.45, SB calls $0.74

      River: ($3.82, 2 players) 6:diamond:

      Hero shows 2:heart: Q:heart: (Flush, Queen High)
      SB shows Q:spade: Q:club: (Full House, Sixes full of Queens)
      Hero wins $0.00
      SB wins $3.57


      I have ALOT more. I know I didn't play the starting hand chart and sometimes I played hands that I shouldn't have, but I would like a heater once in a while and not as many coolers;-)

      -$45 at 0.01-0.02 right there. I have alot more on request.

      But yes, I read, watch videos, learn, improve and I need alot more, thats for sure!!!!!
    • wasy8
      wasy8
      Black
      Joined: 29.01.2009 Posts: 1,507
      wow, you butchered almost every hand you posted.
    • Polarbeard
      Polarbeard
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.11.2010 Posts: 13
      I know I didn't played most of them well,

      I am just saying that I payed EVERYTIME I played bad. Remember that I mentionned playing my first poker hand ever 3.5 months ago. I do not think I am gods gift to poker!

      A heater would have come handy though; once in a while. Please reffer to first post where I say i reviewed my hands and found that i played bad and it made me sick to my stomach.

      I am not trying to brag in any shape or form and intentionnaly posted several hands where I got cought with overpairs being unawared of what happens when you play nits and rocks.

      I have several other hands double checked by alot of 2+2 vets saying i did what needed to be done but still loss alot.

      I could let you check my database to find spots where i sucked up (won while playing like the idiot I am), but I doubt you would find much. I just didn't draw good.

      Anyway, at this very moment, I just want to switch to SSS to avoid any other mistakes (and therefore not go busto!). Just want to be sure of what I need to adapt to make it work on William Hill.

      Thanks!
    • Polarbeard
      Polarbeard
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.11.2010 Posts: 13
      As an other example, this one: only $0.90 in the pot when I hit my trips. I want to let the opponent catch some good cards to get all the moneys in the middle:


      iPoker - $0.04 NL - Holdem - 10 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      Hero (MP): $2.87
      MP+1: $5.00
      MP+2: $2.69
      LP: $2.38
      CO: $1.04
      BTN: $4.00
      SB: $1.98
      BB: $4.00
      UTG: $4.49
      UTG+1: $4.95

      SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04, MP+1 posts DB $0.04

      Pre Flop: ($0.10) Hero has 8:club: 8:spade:

      fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.16, fold, fold, LP raises to $0.40, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.24

      Flop: ($0.90, 2 players) 2:heart: 8:heart: A:spade:
      Hero checks, LP checks

      Turn: ($0.90, 2 players) K:spade:
      Hero bets $0.90, LP calls $0.90

      River: ($2.70, 2 players) 9:heart:
      Hero bets $1.57, LP calls $1.08

      Hero shows 8:club: 8:spade: (Three of a Kind, Eights)
      LP shows K:heart: A:heart: (Flush, Ace High)
      Hero wins $0.00
      LP wins $4.54


      And here, I am ahead again when all the moneys are in:


      iPoker - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 10 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      Hero (BTN): $5.10
      SB: $1.98
      BB: $2.00
      UTG: $3.38
      UTG+1: $2.22
      MP: $3.33
      MP+1: $1.12
      MP+2: $1.40
      LP: $4.52
      CO: $1.00

      SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02, CO posts DB $0.02

      Pre Flop: ($0.05) Hero has J:diamond: K:diamond:

      fold, fold, fold, fold, MP+2 calls $0.02, LP raises to $0.06, fold, Hero calls $0.06, fold, fold, MP+2 calls $0.04

      Flop: ($0.23, 3 players) 2:diamond: K:club: 9:spade:
      MP+2 bets $1.34, fold, Hero calls $1.34

      Turn: ($2.91, 2 players) T:club:

      River: ($2.91, 2 players) 3:club:

      MP+2 shows 6:club: 5:club: (Flush, King High)
      MP+2 wins $2.72

      An other funny one:

      iPoker - $0.10 NL - Holdem - 10 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      UTG+1: $10.15
      MP: $5.41
      MP+1: $10.00
      MP+2: $16.02
      LP: $5.16
      Hero (CO): $6.07
      BTN: $2.35
      SB: $10.19
      BB: $10.00
      UTG: $10.43

      SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

      Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has K:heart: K:diamond:

      UTG raises to $0.20, fold, fold, fold, MP+2 calls $0.20, fold, Hero raises to $0.95, fold, fold, fold, fold, MP+2 calls $0.75

      Flop: ($2.25, 2 players) 5:spade: 7:diamond: 2:heart:
      MP+2 checks, Hero bets $2.25, MP+2 raises to $4.50, Hero calls $2.25

      Turn: ($11.25, 2 players) T:diamond:
      MP+2 bets $0.60, Hero raises to $0.62, MP+2 calls $0.02

      River: ($12.49, 2 players) 6:heart:

      MP+2 shows 6:club: 6:diamond: (Three of a Kind, Sixes)
      MP+2 wins $11.66

      I am probably the dream of any good and serious player, not because of my bad play, but because I DO NOT SUCK OUT AT ALL!!!! Playing bad for me=autiomatic loss! :P Anyway, the hands posted above + $28 dollars of rake, I guess I can be happy not to be busto!

      But yes, the main reason for this thread is to get feedback on how to play the SSS with William Hill specs. I have red the SSS strategy section and have watch most of the related videos. It is pretty straight forward and my only concern is about the amount of BB I need to get in and when I go out. I would also like to hear if this strategy works with a table full of nits & rocks. Using a HUD, I can easily modify my all in calls if called by a player with a Vpip of 4 (ie: not going all in when he reraises my 4XBB KQ from the blinds).

      I am really hoping for some tips here from any experienced players that would like to help!!!!! Thanks in advance!
    • MeanGreen
      MeanGreen
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2007 Posts: 862
      Hate to bring it to you this way but I see 2 major problems:

      1. What you play is NOT sss. I see you calling with hands preflop (there is no calling in SSS) and worse: some of the hands aren't even on the chart. I also see raises with hands on the chart, but from the wrong position.

      2. You can't be profitable on the long run if you don't follow the table buy-in 20bb rule.

      Don't mean to be rude, but at this rate you'll be broke before January and maybe even frustrated with poker. Take a moment to review if SSS is really your type of game, review if you really want to play on WH (the 20bb buyin for sss is a MUST), and reread the articles, because you have errors in your game.

      SSS is a winning strategy (I haven't played anything else in the last 2 years) but you have to do it the right way. Good luck!
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      Originally posted by MeanGreen
      Hate to bring it to you this way but I see 2 major problems:

      1. What you play is NOT sss. I see you calling with hands preflop (there is no calling in SSS) and worse: some of the hands aren't even on the chart. I also see raises with hands on the chart, but from the wrong position.

      2. You can't be profitable on the long run if you don't follow the table buy-in 20bb rule.

      Don't mean to be rude, but at this rate you'll be broke before January and maybe even frustrated with poker. Take a moment to review if SSS is really your type of game, review if you really want to play on WH (the 20bb buyin for sss is a MUST), and reread the articles, because you have errors in your game.

      SSS is a winning strategy (I haven't played anything else in the last 2 years) but you have to do it the right way. Good luck!
      From what I understand OP is thinking of switching to sss because of a bankroll reduction but was playing BSS till now.


      To OP

      Ficus on your play and not on the results. If you make the right play and the odds are on your side you will make money in the long run. The other way around and you will lose money. So If you played a hand badly and win and don't learn from it you will lose from it.

      Just as an example, the first hand posted, you said he is a maniac, but you call an AI with a K high and no draw... what were you thinking to beat? if you think he is bluffing alright. but he could be bluffing with a A high and still beat you. So against loose opponents you tighten your range so you beat them most of the time. given that , you have a pretty good chance your K8s will be 3 bet if you raise, so you should either fold it pre or limp it and call the initial raise then you dont hit just fold it on the flop. Do not bluff a maniac or a calling station. A bluff is the aim to make the better hand fold and neither a maniac nor a calling station fold. got my point?

      my advice is play the strategy you like, if your bankroll is short maybe deposit a little in a room of your choice. reread the articles corresponding to your strategy. Watch some videos, study your hands and try not too make the same mistakes again. Also I would advice you too tighten your game as much as you can to start become near nitty. and then learn to play more and more speculative hands. Post flop play is a lot harder than preflop. Just following a starting hand chart can seem pretty easy but if you dont know what to do postflop with half the hands, you are in trouble.

      One last advice, if you can find the poker mindset (it's a book) read it.

      GLATT
    • Polarbeard
      Polarbeard
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.11.2010 Posts: 13
      Originally posted by Polarbeard
      Anyway, at this very moment, I just want to switch to SSS to avoid any other mistakes (and therefore not go busto!). Just want to be sure of what I need to adapt to make it work on William Hill.
      You are correct. I was not playing the SSS. I was actually playing extremly loose wich seemed to me to be the best way to adapt on WH incredibly thight microstakes tables.

      As for the first hand posted, I can't agree more that the good move was to fold my cards. Even if the odds were about even (44% vs 47%), I did not know his hole cards for sure (I had a very strong feeling he was bluffing though) but then again, folding was the move to make!

      But most of my hands posted here were to illustrate:

      1. That I made bad plays because I was not prepared to play against the extremely tight players at WH microstakes tables (not taking in acount that the vast majority of the time nit-rocks play, they have very high poket pairs).

      2. That I have made other plays that were just horrible regardless of how tight the table was.

      3. That theses mistakes made me think that the safest way to play my remaining 20$ bankroll seemed to be the SSS.

      From what I am reading, it is not really possible at WH. So unless I hear otherwise, I am going to play BSS; but I will tighten up a bit pre and post flop ;-)

      Thanks!
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      I do not know the room have you tried asking in the poker room forum?
    • luitzen
      luitzen
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.04.2009 Posts: 664
      Nits with very low VP$IP are not regulars and if the site doesn't allow you to play SSS, you should learn something else.