call 15 rule

  • 25 replies
    • Philipvw
      Philipvw
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.05.2007 Posts: 578
      You can call a raise if the effective stack (the smallest stack in the hand) is at least 15 times the size of the amount you need to call. You know your probably behind now, but you rely on your implied odds when you flop a set (and even hope that he has a second best hand like an overpair).

      EDIT: When you make such a call, make sure that there is no-one behind you who is likely to raise.
    • rubysilesia
      rubysilesia
      Silver
      Joined: 03.07.2007 Posts: 351
      Are u sure about this effective stack? I would say that u can call if ANY stack in the hand is 15 times the call size.
    • Philipvw
      Philipvw
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.05.2007 Posts: 578
      I ment at least one of your villains' stack and your stack.
    • aanty2000
      aanty2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2007 Posts: 484
      both stacks must be minimum 15 x the diference between your bet and his raise (the amount you need to call)
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      from our strategy article:

      Call 15: You only find this with pocket pairs. Here you call, if your stack, as well as the stack of your opponent, is at least 15 times as large as the raise that you have to call. Otherwise, you fold.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • aanty2000
      aanty2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2007 Posts: 484
      look at this example and you will understand what i am refering at.
      nl 10 sh game . stacks 10 and 10 .
      i raise 0.40 with pp and i get reraised 1.20 . i would normaly call .
      but i posted a hand like this and the judge said to fold cauze i dont respect the call 15 rule . whats the corect play ? cant i call for set value ?
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      I don't know about call 15 rule... I haven't read the article. But...

      You raised $0.40, you get reraised $1.20, here I didn't understand If yougot reraised $1.20 MORE, or got reraised TO $1.20.

      So, let's see both cases.

      1) You got reraised $1.20 more.

      There's $2.15 in the pot (supposing neither of you are on the blinds, and the blinds folded). You have to call $1.20 to get a shot at winning $2.15(the pot)+$8.40(villain's remaining stack)=10.55

      So your implied odds are 10.55-to-1.20 or 8.79-to-1. To call it profitably here, you gotta have at least 8-to-1 odds (the odds for flopping a set). So in this case you can call profitably.

      The true odds to flop a set are 7.6-to-1 (it's a little bit less, 7.5something....) but for simplicity's sake I use 8-to-1.

      2)If you got reraised to $1.20.

      I don't think there's need to make calculations here, but here I go.

      You have to call $0.80 for a shot at 10.55, your implied odds are 13.19-to-1, so it's also profitable.

      My conclusion: I don't know where this Call 15 rule came from, but I don't get it.
    • aanty2000
      aanty2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2007 Posts: 484
      nl10 sh pocket nines read this hand and look what the judge say
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Originally posted by Puschkin81
      from our strategy article:

      Call 15: You only find this with pocket pairs. Here you call, if your stack, as well as the stack of your opponent, is at least 15 times as large as the raise that you have to call. Otherwise, you fold.

      Hi Faye!

      Do you always stack your opponent when you hit your set? I don't think so. That's why you need a lot more than 8 to 1 odds to call. You need 15 to 1 (= the call15 rule) because you have to win often enough to turn the losses when you don't hit your set into an overall winning strategy. So only call when you AND your opponent have 15-times the amount left you would have to call.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Ok, that makes sense Puschkin, but even so I don't think it must be so much more than 8... how about 12? Ok, I'm just gessing a number here. :D

      Besides that, down in NL10, even NL25... Players are too bad and are not going to fold their overpairs or Top Pairs and I end up stacking them.

      There are those times when the villain has QQ, I flop a set, but there's also an Ace or a King on the board, and I usually don't stack him, but that doesn't happen all the time, and sometimes I do stacking him anyway. So, it does make sense to use more than 8, but 15? That's almost the double. Isn't it a little bit too much?

      Let's take aanty example:

      When the action returns to him preflop, there's $1.65 in the pot, and he has to call $0.80, he will have $9.78 on his stack when he sees the flop.

      Let's suppose he does flop a set. There will be $2.45 in the pot. (In the actual hand there was $2.65, I don't know where are these 20 cents I'm missing here, but it doesn't make a big difference.)

      Most of the time, villain will make a continuation bet here. (and in this case he did.) Let's say he bets out $2. (Just like he did in the example.)

      Well, after this, most players won't be folding their overpairs anymore IMO, let's say Hero just calls. There will be $6.45 in the pot on the turn, and $7.78 in Hero's stack. Most players in NL10 (and even NL25) are not folding anymore, even If overcards show up on the turn. (Some of them may get scared and fold, and that's why I think it's better to just raise on the flop while villain is not scared.).
    • aanty2000
      aanty2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2007 Posts: 484
      Instructional sample hands #16 here in the first sample hand you are in the same situation ... and you call ... i am a little confused with the right play in this situations ... i tend to call ... but peter says is bad because of the call 15 ... you present the call 15 and show is bad ... but in the example you call ...
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Hi aanty2000!

      That's a special example because Villain is very aggressive. But against an unknown or "normal" opponent the call15 rule applies.

      @ Faye: Believe me: the call15 rule is based on a lot of calculations and experiences of professional poker players. If you call with less than 15-times the amount you have to call you won't get paid off often enough against a normal opponent (even on NL5) because they not always hit their top pair with AK or AQ and some are able to fold their hands on dangerous boards.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • aanty2000
      aanty2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2007 Posts: 484
      so in this situations you have to fold most of the times ?
    • dhw86
      dhw86
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.12.2006 Posts: 12,263
      when you raise a pocket and you're facing a (normal) reraise, in most cases the most profitable action is a simple fold.

      why?

      lets say you have 100BB stacks each. you raise 4BB and the reraise is 12BB.

      you have to call 8BB. if you call, you have both 88BB behind and the pot is around 24BB


      you hit your set with a possibility of something like 2/50 + 48/50 * 2/49 + 47/49 * 2/48 = 0,12 which is around one time in 8 times.


      we fold our pocket pair unimproved. so we fold it 7 times and lose 7*8 = 56BB
      to make a call break even (i dont mind set over set situations and rake) we have to stack villain with a chance of 56/88 = 64%

      lets say its two of three times we hit our set, we need villains whole stack just to make a call break even!


      now there are two problems:
      first: villain 3bets hands like TT, every overcard is a scarecard.
      second: villain 3bets AK and AQ which hit the flop just in around 30% ... in those cases you just get the continuation bet

      maybe villain alo 3bets trash hands, but the possibility is quite low (depends if villain is reasonable, overall possibility should be below 5%, especially on fullring tables)




      ==> calling a 3bet for setvalue with 100BB stacks is normally -EV
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Ok, you guys convinced me that calling for setvalue in these cases are -EV, but... :D

      What if I raise 99, face normal reraise, my opponent can be reraising me with AQ or AK, If I fold, isn't it -EV? And let's also suppose the reraiser is one of the blinds, so I'll have position after the flop.

      Just one more thing, out of curiosity, is there any article about how they arrived at this call 15 rule? I mean, the calculations, I like this kind of stuff.
    • aanty2000
      aanty2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2007 Posts: 484
      btw pushkin ... a super agresive player preflop that reraise a lot is not so likely to pay your set like a passive player who reraises preflop and whos reraise tells he is big . an agresive player wants to end pots pre or on the flop mostly and he doesnt want a lot of showdowns ... so your call in that example may not be so ev as you say ... maybe i am thinking wrong ... pls corect me ...
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Originally posted by aanty2000
      btw pushkin ... a super agresive player preflop that reraise a lot is not so likely to pay your set like a passive player who reraises preflop and whos reraise tells he is big . an agresive player wants to end pots pre or on the flop mostly and he doesnt want a lot of showdowns ... so your call in that example may not be so ev as you say ... maybe i am thinking wrong ... pls corect me ...
      I think what you say makes sense, but the guys AF is 4.2, it's way too high, it's a little bit lower than what mine used to be when I played at Party Poker. And I can assure you, with this AF I would always get screwed against sets, whenever I hit my hand. :D
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Originally posted by Faye6891
      Originally posted by aanty2000
      btw pushkin ... a super agresive player preflop that reraise a lot is not so likely to pay your set like a passive player who reraises preflop and whos reraise tells he is big . an agresive player wants to end pots pre or on the flop mostly and he doesnt want a lot of showdowns ... so your call in that example may not be so ev as you say ... maybe i am thinking wrong ... pls corect me ...
      I think what you say makes sense, but the guys AF is 4.2, it's way too high, it's a little bit lower than what mine used to be when I played at Party Poker. And I can assure you, with this AF I would always get screwed against sets, whenever I hit my hand. :D
      Thanks for the answer :D

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      No Problem, just a little bit about my personal experience there! :P

      Now, you used my answer to answer his question but you gave no answer to my question! :(

      Originally posted by Faye6891
      Ok, you guys convinced me that calling for setvalue in these cases are -EV, but... :D

      What if I raise 99, face normal reraise, my opponent can be reraising me with AQ or AK, If I fold, isn't it -EV? And let's also suppose the reraiser is one of the blinds, so I'll have position after the flop.

      Just one more thing, out of curiosity, is there any article about how they arrived at this call 15 rule? I mean, the calculations, I like this kind of stuff.
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