Do you add your call amout when calculating pot odds?

    • rarama
      rarama
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.10.2010 Posts: 15
      I was playing poker today at my friend's place and we got into a debate on calculating pot odds. I used to think that you don't add your call amount when calculating pot odds. But after learning more on this site it seems that I'm suppose to. We debated about it for a while and even googled it and saw some threads but it was pretty mixed replies some were saying you do some said you don't. I think a lot of the confusion is because some people look at pot odds as 2:1, 3:1, 4:1 etc. But others look at it as percentage wise of winning the pot, which is how I look at it. If I have a flush draw I look at it as I have a roughly 36% chance of winning I have no clue what the odds are in terms of 2:1 or 3:1. Hopefully I can get some help here.

      Here's an example of what I'm trying to get at.

      Pot = $100
      On the flop Villain goes all-in for $100
      I have exactly 33.333% equity to win the hand.

      So how I calculate my pot odds now is I'll add the $100 I'm suppose to call with which now makes the total pot equal $300 ($100 original pot, $100 villain all-in, $100 my call). So for a $300 pot I have 33.333% equity I should be willing to call upto $100 (33.333% of $300). In this scenario I break even on the call. Two times I'll lose my $100. The one time I win I make $200 (the originall pot and Villain's $100) Is this correct?

      Because if it is I should be technically calling all pot-size bets on the flop if I have the nut flush draw. Which is what I've been doing. But my friend was debating I shouldn't because you can't add your call as part of the pot. I understand that even though I have the price to call to see the river, I might still have to fold because he might bet the turn where I'll have to pay more. But I call because of implied odds also in these situations.

      Also if I have a hand that I want to protect a nut flush again it seems that I have to overbet the pot to make the guy fold his nut flush draw.
  • 3 replies
    • bradomurder
      bradomurder
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.10.2008 Posts: 1,329
      you are right, your friend is wrong.

      overbetting is not really necessary, you don't really want the guy to fold if he only has 33% to win the pot.
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      Originally posted by rarama
      I was playing poker today at my friend's place and we got into a debate on calculating pot odds. I used to think that you don't add your call amount when calculating pot odds. But after learning more on this site it seems that I'm suppose to. We debated about it for a while and even googled it and saw some threads but it was pretty mixed replies some were saying you do some said you don't. I think a lot of the confusion is because some people look at pot odds as 2:1, 3:1, 4:1 etc. But others look at it as percentage wise of winning the pot, which is how I look at it. If I have a flush draw I look at it as I have a roughly 36% chance of winning I have no clue what the odds are in terms of 2:1 or 3:1. Hopefully I can get some help here.

      Here's an example of what I'm trying to get at.

      Pot = $100
      On the flop Villain goes all-in for $100
      I have exactly 33.333% equity to win the hand.

      So how I calculate my pot odds now is I'll add the $100 I'm suppose to call with which now makes the total pot equal $300 ($100 original pot, $100 villain all-in, $100 my call). So for a $300 pot I have 33.333% equity I should be willing to call upto $100 (33.333% of $300). In this scenario I break even on the call. Two times I'll lose my $100. The one time I win I make $200 (the originall pot and Villain's $100) Is this correct?

      Because if it is I should be technically calling all pot-size bets on the flop if I have the nut flush draw. Which is what I've been doing. But my friend was debating I shouldn't because you can't add your call as part of the pot. I understand that even though I have the price to call to see the river, I might still have to fold because he might bet the turn where I'll have to pay more. But I call because of implied odds also in these situations.

      Also if I have a hand that I want to protect a nut flush again it seems that I have to overbet the pot to make the guy fold his nut flush draw.

      you do not add your bet amount. To come back to your example, villain betted pot size, now you got 2:1 odds meaning you have to pay $100 to win $200 in the pot already.
    • JonikoP
      JonikoP
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 600
      Re calling with the NFD, unless you are all in when deciding whether to call you should be calculating your chance to hit on the turn, not the turn and river.

      With the NFD, the chances of hitting on the turn are roughly 19% (if you assume hitting your A is an out you are getting about 21%). The 36% number you refer to is to hit by the river (i.e. turn and river combined). So, no need to bet full pot or overbet to deny your opponent direct odds to call when you think he's on a FD and you don't have direct odds to call a pot size bet on the flop.

      Obviously implied odds need to be considered and you will likely win more money when you do hit. Implieds shouldn't be overestimated (as they often are) and bear in mind you have better implied odds IP when you can control the size of the pot.