why shove it all in ?!!

    • godders248
      godders248
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.08.2010 Posts: 23
      Hi party people.

      I have recently been watching videos on strategy and looking over a few articles and i believe that the whole idea of shoving isnt a great call with such marginal hands ill give you an example to show what im on about

      Sng £3.25 6 players 5 remain
      blinds 50/100
      folds around to us
      Hero 1700 BU
      Villain 2700BB
      hero holds q9os and shoves all in
      villain calls with TT hits trips and knocks us out.

      Why is this such a common play to shove against the bb with such marginal hand. i belive a raise is better and would do 3 things:

      1. if villain hasd nothing he will fold a raise
      2. if he has TT and calls then we can out play post flop / or at least have the chance to hit
      3.if shoves over you you have chance to fold and stay in tournament.

      Our goal surely is to get into the money as much as possible and small edges are what gets us more profit so say we raised q9 flop came Q94 WE COULD HAVE TAKEN THIS POT DOWN RATHER THAN RISKING IT IN A COIN FLIP OR WAY BEHIND.
      i know this is such a common play that when im playing and in bb and someone shoves as its played with marginal hands if i hold anything 66+ AJ+ i call and 8/10 taken it down
      let me no what you think guys
      godders248
  • 8 replies
    • zamoda
      zamoda
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.03.2009 Posts: 509
      You should not be shoving 17 BB deep... So in your example you should be raise folding instead of pushing AI..

      But when you are have less than 13 BB, shoving AI is unexploitable.. Lets say you have something like 10 BB, make a raise with QTs from SB, and BB pushes all in. You are left wondering if he is just re-stealing or he has a monster. When you push AI instead of making a raise, villain most likely will fold all marginal hands with which he can be temped to re-steal.
    • godders248
      godders248
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.08.2010 Posts: 23
      I understand that but why not just fold Q9 all together and wait a tad longer because one thing i have noticed is as the blinds go up people get more desperate and i alwyas say to myself hold on a little longer and dont shove that marginal hand till i have to and normally means im in the money 48% of time when i know shoving i would prob only be ITM 20%
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,908
      Consider the situation where you have Q9 and villain has 55. If you raise, he'll resteal and you fold a flip which is the wrong move. If you shove you have an easy coinflip. Shoving is correct because it creates fold equity even if your hand's real equity is smaller.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      i know this is such a common play that when im playing and in bb and someone shoves as its played with marginal hands if i hold anything 66+ AJ+ i call and 8/10 taken it down
      If you call with 66+ AJ, then you don't have 80% equity, even against Q9o. Q9o would still win 31.4% of the time. In addition, if you are only calling with a top 7.7% hand, then you are going to fold a lot, so much that it is right to shove not just Q9o, but 32o against you. You will be getting run over as you wait for a hand in a range which has less than 70% equity. Some players call too tightly, and that is a reason pushing Q9o might be very profitable.

      Semibluffing is a powerful move. You have two ways to win. First, your opponent can fold. Second, you can draw out in case you get called. The chance to draw out means that getting called does not cost nearly as much on average as if a pure bluff were called.

      Our goal surely is to get into the money as much as possible
      No, my goal is to win money, and that does not mean maximizing my chance to make it into the money. If you concentrate too much on making the money, you will not win as much as you could.

      say we raised q9 flop came Q94 WE COULD HAVE TAKEN THIS POT DOWN
      You do not get a favorable flop just because you made a small raise. In fact, sometimes you let someone with 98s resteal you off the best hand.

      why not just fold Q9 all together and wait a tad longer
      Q9o might be a good opportunity. Folding does not avoid gambles, it mainly puts them off. If you gamble now, you will be better prepared for later gambles if you take the blinds or double up.

      The situation you mention might be marginal because you are pushing 17 big blinds into a player who has you covered by a lot, so that he is not very risk-averse against you while you are risk-averse against him. Nevertheless, it would still be reasonable to push Q9o there. The important thing is that you need to push a wide rage for 10 or 12 bb onto an equal stack, and not worry overly much about running into a premium hand. This is the bread-and-butter play of SNGs, not trying to sneak into the money.
    • godders248
      godders248
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.08.2010 Posts: 23
      Pzhon :) thankyou very much :) now i see the reasons behind and just finished reading the poker blue print and says very similar in that :) learning everyday thankyou :)
      godders248
    • MikeAK47
      MikeAK47
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2008 Posts: 136
      Because some times you get lucky of course!

      Case in point...



      Full Tilt, $11 + $1 NL Hold'em Tournament, 300/600 Blinds, 2 Players
      LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

      BB: 6,184
      Hero (BTN): 7,316

      Pre-Flop: (900) 6:spade: 8:heart: dealt to Hero (BTN)
      Hero raises to 7,316 and is All-In, BB calls 5,584 and is All-In

      Flop: (12,368) 9:spade: 3:heart: 5:diamond: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Turn: (12,368) 7:heart: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      River: (12,368) 7:diamond: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Results: 12,368 Pot
      BB showed K:heart: K:spade: and LOST (-5,584 NET)
      Hero showed 6:spade: 8:heart: and WON 12,368 (+6,484 NET)



      And pzhon is awesome!
    • Bigniux
      Bigniux
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.01.2009 Posts: 2,098
      Originally posted by godders248
      just finished reading the poker blue print and says very similar in that :)
      imo you shouldn't read Poker Blueprint if you're playing sngs, cause it's for 6max cash games.

      Btw, if you have AA instead of Q9o in your example, as you say it's suggested to shove with Q9o, but you prefer raising, what about AA? Do you shove or raise? :)
    • godders248
      godders248
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.08.2010 Posts: 23
      I think you should raise as your be expecting a steal attempt after what pzhon has said so its a quick way to trap him in to raising you with his intention to steal with k6 example !!!