3bet AK from blinds?

    • utenosmelynas
      utenosmelynas
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2009 Posts: 286
      So sometimes there are ugly spots where you have AK on the blinds and someone like 24/14 loosing regular with fold to cbet 0 and fold to turn cbet 0 agg 3 cbet 88 raises from utg2, his fold to cbet is very low as well as fold to 3bet and he will call almost all the time if you 3bet him pre, so if we 3bet and he calls it's very likely that we miss flop and the fact that he doesn't fold to cbets doesn't help us at all. so we stuck in situation where cbet is -EV becouse we OOP and he will float us with happy face so often and rarely can 2nd barrel with A high. but 3bet/ check flop line is so retarded and its burning money. so let's assume that we just call his raise and hoping to hit. if I'm right we hit 25% of the time and we miss 75% of the time our A or K. sometimes we hit some gutshots or FD's but it isn't that much. but he will cbet almost all the time becouse he has initiative.

      Okey, so gentlemans, what do you think is the best line to take when facing such a situation? :)

      example

      Seat 5 is the button
      Seat 1: ( $135.65 USD )
      Seat 2: ( $62.80 USD )
      Seat 4: ( $96.25 USD )
      Seat 5: ( $25.00 USD )
      Seat 6: hero ( $34.22 USD )
      Seat 7: ( $64.43 USD )
      Seat 8: ( $45.69 USD )
      Seat 9: raiser ( $28.44 USD )
      hero posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
      xxx reg posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
      x posts ante of [$0.05 USD].
      x posts ante of [$0.05 USD].
      x posts ante of [$0.05 USD].
      x ante of [$0.05 USD].
      hero posts ante of [$0.05 USD].
      xxx reg posts ante of [$0.05 USD].
      x posts ante of [$0.05 USD].
      raiser posts ante of [$0.05 USD].
      ** Dealing down cards **
      Dealt to strongb3lief [ Ad Kh ]
      x folds
      raiser raises [$0.80 USD]
      x folds
      x folds
      x folds
      x folds
      hero calls [$0.70 USD]
      xxx reg folds
      ** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, 8h, 3h ]
      hero checks
      raiser bets [$2.40 USD]
      hero folds
      raiser wins $2.40 USD
  • 13 replies
    • Hajler
      Hajler
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.10.2008 Posts: 270
      So he never folds to your 3-bets or your bets post flop? Sounds like you should just 3-bet and take him on a trip to value town. :f_cool:

      The fact that you will miss the flop sometimes isn't a reason for not 3-betting. Calling with AK IP is fine but OOP you are going to have a hard time playing your hand, so just raise and make your life easier.
    • utenosmelynas
      utenosmelynas
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2009 Posts: 286
      Originally posted by Hajler
      So he never folds to your 3-bets or your bets post flop? Sounds like you should just 3-bet and take him on a trip to value town. :f_cool:

      The fact that you will miss the flop sometimes isn't a reason for not 3-betting. Calling with AK IP is fine but OOP you are going to have a hard time playing your hand, so just raise and make your life easier.
      He will never fold to 3bet preflop and very rarely fold flop to my cbet. Yet I don't think that against this type of opponent 3bet pre is +ev with AK. By just calling you don't steal initiative from him and letting him to hang his self I think should be the right play. Also he will rarely put you on AK so it's even better to stack him off when he has KQ,AQ,AJ,KJ hands. or when flop hits JTQ and he has 2pair or set he is never folding becouse you just called him pre. So imo call preflop is cheapest way to stack him off. :) If he would be in MP/LP I would be more inclined to 3bet him becouse his range is wayyyy more full of shit. :)
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      if you are ahead of his range and he never folds preflop there's no way 3betting AK is not +ev. it's easy math. if a play is -ev it means that folding is better than doing that (folding ev = 0)
    • Leito99
      Leito99
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.07.2009 Posts: 754
      Originally posted by alejandrosh
      if you are ahead of his range and he never folds preflop there's no way 3betting AK is not +ev. (folding ev = 0)

      there is a way,
      he has positional advantage which makes it possible for him to make you fold a better hand

      no?
    • utenosmelynas
      utenosmelynas
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2009 Posts: 286
      Originally posted by Leito99
      Originally posted by alejandrosh
      if you are ahead of his range and he never folds preflop there's no way 3betting AK is not +ev. (folding ev = 0)

      there is a way,
      he has positional advantage which makes it possible for him to make you fold a better hand

      no?
      imo yes
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      No one has fold to flop & turn cbet of 0 unless the sample is very small
    • fusionpk
      fusionpk
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,683
      vs a station 3b'ing AK is the nuts I don't see how it isn't, you get stacks when u hit your TP and he has worse TP, you get good amt when he has random middle pairs/draws and when u totally miss you can just give up, he makes the game super easy for u.
    • Bierbaer
      Bierbaer
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2005 Posts: 7,989
      Originally posted by Leito99
      Originally posted by alejandrosh
      if you are ahead of his range and he never folds preflop there's no way 3betting AK is not +ev. (folding ev = 0)

      there is a way,
      he has positional advantage which makes it possible for him to make you fold a better hand

      no?
      No.

      When somebody opens 30% on the button and never folds to 3bets we have over 60% equity, so it is very profitable to 3bet!

      Board:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      BU     35.88%  33.38%   2.50% { 66+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, A7o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }
      BB     64.12%  61.62%   2.50% { AKs, AKo }



      If he then doesn't even fold to the cbet we're cbetting our A high for value even on the flop!

      The only thing you cannot do afterwards, is to c/f the turn.
      He will usually check back medium hands and bet air and strong hands - just c/c and see what he does on the river. Most opponents will not follow through with a bluff.
      If he does bet we usually have to fold, but if I see him doing this a few times I will start c/calling strong hands like this, even c/calling AK is ok then.
    • sapheal
      sapheal
      Global
      Joined: 23.02.2008 Posts: 1,015
      utenosmelynas :)


      You should 3bet for value and then check/fold the flop. If you hit flop, on the other hand, you should value bet him hard. Also, you can make your sizing high on both flop and turn if he's likely to call on those streets.

      Cheers,
      Michal
    • livelydolphin
      livelydolphin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.04.2010 Posts: 30
      Wow I love both the advice from Michal and Bierbaer even though they are vastly different in approach. Bierbaer's analysis and play is great and it's more adventurous, while Michal takes a more cautious profit-maximizing strategy. I'll prefer Bierbaer's play if I have a good read on my opponent and he has the tendency to spew. If the opponent is more passive and calling station-ish, it's better to play straightforward. Also another thing to consider is the board texture and if the opponent is likely to hit.
    • utenosmelynas
      utenosmelynas
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2009 Posts: 286
      @Biearbaer: he wasn't BU, his position was utg2, so his raise first should be ~10% or less, cos he was 24/14 :) against 9,2%(66+,ATs+,AJo+,KQs,KQo) range we have 55% equity.

      Anyway,now i agree that 3b is and option because of the fact that we dominate many of his hands. And like Michal said ch/f flop unimproved is probably the best option i think. :)

      Thanks for answers! :)
    • Maniatrix
      Maniatrix
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.11.2008 Posts: 674
      Playing OOP against this type of villain is harder in a 3bet pot. I'd rather just call. If I hit I'll check-call down 3 streets knowing he will most likely keep bluffing/valuebetting trash.
      Alternatively would be 3betting, miss most of the time and donk off half the stack with A high on flop and turn. Only to give up and fold the river, since the moment you check to him on any street he will bet. I don't like to play for stacks with A high so I'm not calling when he shoves the river.
    • Hackett77
      Hackett77
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 372
      I prefer calling AK BB vs UTG1 and UTG2 against almost all opponents (full ring) rather than 3betting. The reason is mostly range manipulation.

      Say he opens 10% UTG (66+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo) we have 56% equity

      Once we 3bet he either 4bets QQ+AK and we are in bad shape (38% eq)

      or he calls 88-QQ/AQ+KQs+ (53% eq) but he folds folds all the Ax,Kx hands we dominate. These are the hands we need in the pot to win anything more than 1 bet post flop.

      3bet/stacking off AK vs a TAG UTG range when we 3bet from the blinds usually ends up with us flipping at best but usually crushed and 3bet folding AK sucks.

      So id rather play against his entire range, keep the small OOP and play some poker (we dont have to hit an A or K to win but when we do it will usually be more than we win when we 3bet pre.)

      Ill only start 3betting AK if they call 3bets with AJ, ATs, KJs etc or small PPs and often call flop but fold turn.