Can't beat NL10 and its getting me down.

    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      I've been working really hard on my game of late and no matter what I do, I can't beat NL10. I pick up enough premium hands and get enough value to barely cover other non-showdown losses. I break even for entire sessions playing good solid poker. In losing sessions I get coolered for 3 stacks and its impossible to win 3 stacks back because I almost never get any value for my strong hands, or I get it all in vs a draw and they inevitably hit it.

      I've played about 10k hands at NL10 and I'm aware that this isn't a huge sample size. I'm down $90 and cant see a light at the end. The same thing happened to me whilst trying to move up stakes in Sit'n'gos resulting in me deciding to play Cash games instead.

      I know I'm not a flawless poker player by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm really struggling with the idea that I have put so many hours into something and I can't even beat the most basic games consistently.

      I understand that in the short term, Luck is King, but I can't believe that I've put so many hours of study into my game to see literally 0 improvement in results. I seldom find myself in a spot where I need to get lucky, and It's a constant sweat when I've got it all-in with the best hand.

      I feel like by the day I'm getting closer to just quitting poker entirely. I have worked so hard at it and realistically I can't ever see a time where I can play the game profitably enough to enjoy it again. I need a boost!
  • 26 replies
    • flopraiser
      flopraiser
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2009 Posts: 202
      I went through the very same thing on NL25, played for 3 months and was a real struggle to break even. I've recently turned the corner and almost doubled my roll in 10k hands. Maybe start posting some of your bigger hands into the forum, there the judges will let you know if you played it correctly. If you get positive feedback then your probably on a downswing, as you say 10k hands isn't an awful lot.

      Stick in there, things will improve.
    • OZSA
      OZSA
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2009 Posts: 804
      i had this once for a long period, about 60-70k hands where daily i lost 2sets, 2-3 top2 pairs and so on (about daily 5k hands)...it was horrible, but they are setups, u cant do a shit against them...or stuff like 20 AK in a row without a single pair on flop, and if you have TPTK ur against a set? i had this forever almost..you cant change it..keep playing on, go on a fishier site maybe..
    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      Originally posted by OZSA
      i had this once for a long period, about 60-70k hands where daily i lost 2sets, 2-3 top2 pairs and so on (about daily 5k hands)...it was horrible, but they are setups, u cant do a shit against them...or stuff like 20 AK in a row without a single pair on flop, and if you have TPTK ur against a set? i had this forever almost..you cant change it..keep playing on, go on a fishier site maybe..
      I'm already playing on Ipoker lol. I have been posting loads of hands for hand evaluation and I have missed some value incertain spots, and I'm not denying I've lost 2/3 stacks to tilt. Like I said, I'm really working hard on my game, but I've genuinely never had to work had at things to fail. Things have always come easy to me. This is why I'm really struggling with putting in SO much hard work, and there being literally no benefit for me doing so. At least not immediately.
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      Try posting your positional stats to see if there are any blatant leaks in your game. I had a rotten time playing nl5 SH last year lol and it was because I was being way too aggressive and showing down too weak.

      I've taken time away and come back with a different approach and there's an immediately noticable difference in my game. Sometimes you start with bad habits without realising and end up making the same mistakes over and over on auto pilot and when this happens you just spew cash all over the place.

      If someone takes a look at your game and none of this is evident then it's a down swing.

      There was a platinum or diamond member on here a while back saying that they had been running bad for more than 100k hands so even if your game is perfect it's still possible to get destroyed over 10k+ hands no problem.
    • pepsico
      pepsico
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.10.2010 Posts: 129
      Like I said, I'm really working hard on my game, but I've genuinely never had to work had at things to fail. Things have always come easy to me. This is why I'm really struggling with putting in SO much hard work, and there being literally no benefit for me doing so. At least not immediately.
      Just stick in there. I am going through a similar rough time. I went from NL2 to NL5 and nearly doubled my BR, then for no obvious reason I went on a loosing streak, and lost all I had made. It was a big shock for me, too, especially since I have been playing the same style like when I was winning, and also watching videos and attending public coaching sessions. I had the impression I was doing everything right. But now I am back to studying articles and videos and have already learned many things I did not know before, like how to exploit certain spots or playing styles. I will put them to practice again at NL2 and see how it goes. Whether my fall was due to a bad beat or me not knowing the basics doesn't really matter. This rough period came to make me learn things I did not know before. So I am glad it happened. Hope you will adopt the same positive attitude towards it. Don't quit, it's all good excercise for your character.
    • darkod80
      darkod80
      Global
      Joined: 13.11.2008 Posts: 161
      have you considered moving somewhere where you get rakeback? There are good networks with 30% rakeback and games are much softer than at ipoker? Try entraction or boss for example.
    • OZSA
      OZSA
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2009 Posts: 804
      ipoker is very fishy, wonder what you would do if u played now on FT rush poker and you just lose 50% of ur sets and 70% of ur top 2 pairs:) well..play less tables as possible and wait around 30-40hands till you find out who is the fish and focus on him..i played on ipoker once for some weeks it was very fishy and easy to win but i just hated the software, no traffic and shity vip program (for nl10) so i just couldnt stay there..its easier to post hands and see where u make the mistakes
    • JonikoP
      JonikoP
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 600
      You'll eventually run worse than you thought possible


      Whilst losing 9BIs over 10k hands seems like a lot it could easily just be short-term variance.

      Having said that, keep studying your game and posting hands you're not sure about to the forums.

      What are your stats by the way?
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      play more tables. get better. run better.

      after a while 10k hands will seem like nothing, and you'll know whether you were just running bad or not
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69/micro-stakes-pl-nl/theory-looong-how-beat-micros-2nl-50nl-367707/
    • h0m1e
      h0m1e
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2010 Posts: 223
      I had the same problem as you had,over 8k hands down 11BI at NL10.Was like 7 BI below EV so yeah it is possible to run bad.Although I was 7 BI below EV, I know that my biggest leak was that I was tilting like a madman at NL10.
      But I kept my faith, I rebuilt my bankroll at NL5 and then took another successful shot in the end at NL10.The difference is that I almost never tilted this time and this reflected in my BR.
      So my advice is to go down a limit, rebuild your confidence,and then try again.It's the only way.Keep on improving your mindset.
    • winnergr
      winnergr
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.05.2010 Posts: 118
      My God, I thought for a minute this was my new thread! Exactly at the same position like you, seems that I cannot beat NL10 and this makes me so frustrated. Keep on working, there is always space for improvement!
    • Wurble
      Wurble
      Silver
      Joined: 04.04.2009 Posts: 456
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69/micro-stakes-pl-nl/theory-looong-how-beat-micros-2nl-50nl-367707/
      This is one of the best articles I've read.
    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      I actually decided to take a complete break from poker (live/online/reading/hand reviews/tv shows/forums) for 3 days. 3 Days doesn't seem like a lot I suppose but it's genuinely been rare for me to to get through 1 day in the past 6-8 months without doing something poker related.

      I was actually overrolled for NL10 before I took a shot, so I've still got around 6/7 buy-ins with which to make a solid effort to make it work before I need to move down at $150.

      I presume this is a coincidence but I thought it would be interesting to see if other players have experienced the same. I felt like when I started learning about poker a couple of years ago, and I was developing and learning/studying effective basic strategy, my game went to shit and not only could I not win by playing what I thought was optimally, I wasn't getting in the same situations to get 'lucky' anymore.

      Over time I became better at applying the strategy and identifying situations where it fits, and suddenly I became a decent winning player. I was beating live cash games in my home town, and crushing the regular home games. I was also playing to a decent standard on NL2 and NL5, building a BR at $2 SnG's ($50 starting capital to $320 at peak). Everything was going great until I decided I wanted to take my game to the next level. I started studying, and my game went to shit again and I became very annoyed that I can't even seem to beat the the same games I was beating with ease before I consciously started trying to get better.

      3 days off makes you put things in perspective though and this is how I now rationalise it in my head.

      Say you're a golfer (I don't golf,) and you can drive 200 yards and your approach shorts are accurate to around 10/15ft. You're happy with your game, you're beating your friends, you're winning some basic tournaments and overall you're playing to a decent standard. You decide that you want to improve your game, so decide to hire a coach.

      The coach says, if you change your grip slightly, and angle your swing differently, you'll be able to drive 250 yards, and your approach shots will be 3-5ft closer to the hole. This all sounds great, but it's different to what you've been doing. If I did play golf, I wouldnt expect that I could suddenly change my grip and angle my swing differently to the immediate benefit of my game. Nor woul I expect that I could suddenly revert back to my old (less efficient) strategy. So why should I expect this in poker?

      Now I'm not saying that I'm playing poker to an advanced level, or I'm trying to learn super advanced strategy, just that I'm in a place right now where my game is somewhere between very basic, and somewhat developed strategies, and I honestly think that the conflicting ideas in my head mean that I'm not playing either efficiently. I am just hoping that like before, I emerge from this limbo phase playing a standard of poker that is better than what I was playing before.

      Does anyone think that their game suffers when they're studying new strategy or trying to encorporate new levels into their game? Or maybe it just takes me longer to assimilate the study materials + practice experience into something tangible that I can work with effectively.
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      You need different strategies to beat different limits. What works at NL100 just becomes spewy at NL10 and lower because nobody folds. You need to gradually adjust your game as you move up.

      Of course, this is all theory as far as I'm concerned as I can't beat any fucking limit atm, never mind move up, but I talk a good game. :f_cry:
    • gnawhalak
      gnawhalak
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.06.2010 Posts: 161
      Does anyone think that their game suffers when they're studying new strategy or trying to encorporate new levels into their game? Or maybe it just takes me longer to assimilate the study materials + practice experience into something tangible that I can work with effectively.




      same here! just like you.. i've put hard work on studying poker and playing a lot of hands./. and finally i was able to beat nl2, to nl5..

      then i thought i'm going to whiz by nl10 and finally beat microstakes..

      but im still stuck at nl10..

      so i kept on reading.. and the more i read.. everytime I try to incorporate new strategies in my game.. i kept losing still! ..

      i realize there's no magic pill in poker nor any formula that would apply to all.. coz peaple just play differently..

      so now.. im playing fewer tables and trying to get better on reading my opponent..
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      You need different strategies to beat different limits. What works at NL100 just becomes spewy at NL10 and lower because nobody folds. You need to gradually adjust your game as you move up.
      This is very important! Biggest mistake we micro/low stakes players make is changing our game instantly when we move up. We feel every 3bet is someone playing back at us, we don't give credit to others and start spewing instead of playing our standard game vs unknowns until we gather some reads. If you really beat your limit the next step up is not that more difficult but you need to be patient until you get a good feel for it.
    • fusionpk
      fusionpk
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,683
      i lost $60 in 2k hands @ nl10 yday, it happens unfortunately :( dw though over the 40-50k I played I am up a pretty decent sum :D basically downswings happen man, 10k isn't really a sample so dw about it :)
    • theguy
      theguy
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.07.2009 Posts: 215
      I had the same problem for about a month. I really think that most of the times it is because of some sort of leak. My first thought was that I am on a downswing and play solid and bla bla lba so on and so on... But actually it was only because pf the small leaks that I had to discover and somehow my "downswing" stopped :D My problem was playing too loose PF, slowplay in unnecessary situations, bluff catching, cbeting on bad flops and passiveness after the flop. Quite a list isn't it :D
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