Bleeding chips in non-SD, need some help stemming the flow.

    • ExMagnusxL
      Joined: 03.04.2010 Posts: 59
      Hello, first I'd like to thanks anyone in advance for their help.

      I've played so many hands of poker in the last week and a half and no matter what I do I can't seem to find a way to profitably bring my red line up while keeping my blue line steady.

      I am currently 16 tabling at FTP on NL2.

      Here is my graph for the last 9 days:
      Uploaded with

      And here is the just the last 15000 hands:

      Uploaded with

      So essentially the downswing at the end where I lost $42 is primarily due to my horrendous non-SD winnings.

      The reasons why my non-SD winnings are so low are:

      1) Allowing blinds to be stolen.

      I have a very difficult time defending my blinds on the micros as I find the value of nearly any hand on them to be very low. This is mainly due to being out of position causing me to even fold AQo sometimes, especially to a small raise from MP that has a donk caller in late. Or even blind steals from the CO or BTN from donks. I absolutely hate betting post flop when I hit into into these guys. I do squeeze in these situations sometimes but I find that this usually just leads to a larger pot on the flop and nobody folding.

      2) Turning passive in any position post flop when my hand misses.

      If I perform a squeeze play (usually a 3-bet of 3x the 2-bet) and completely miss the flop I turn the hand into a check/fold. I have a very difficult time finding value in these hands as I have seen donks with mid-pair think they have enough value to call me all the way down to the river. This is nice when I turn over my absolutely dominating hand after an all in on the river but sucks for getting value from missed flops.

      I have tried taking advantage of flops with scare cards which can work after a squeeze preflop from oop, but when they call, I'm pretty much in the dark about their hand and have to check the turn. From in position without a squeeze pre-flop this frequently does not work as the check raise is an often used play here and I have yet to find a way to figure out which ones are bluffs and which ones mean strength. With a squeeze play preflop the odds of them folding are about even to a 3/4 pot size bet, often they are chasing when they call though, so I guess I should raise higher? As well checking a flop in position is such a sign of weakness on these limits that not betting takes away all fold equity on the turn so a check on the flop to avoid a check/raise on a missed hand often induces a large bluff on the turn whether they have anything or not but I do this too so I guess I can't blame them.

      Often donks are chasing a straight or a flush on the flop and will call nearly any any level of pressure to the river (turn folds are not very common) and will nearly always turn their hand into a pot sized bluff on the river with any pair though they often bet really small with a suckout (2pair on river or better). So unless I spiked top pair or better by the river there is no consistent value in these situations.

      I guess essentially my question is this, for anyone who has conquered this limit are there any value situations that I am missing? Are there situations where it is consistently profitable to get a donk off their hand? Am I missing any easily exploitable value?
  • 9 replies
    • sismis
      Joined: 27.10.2006 Posts: 352
      Losing 10bb/100 hands in nonSD is to high. You must call less preflop and fold/raise more. Also A with good kicker is nice hand to c-bet on flop in position, you will hit your 6-outer by river many times and sometimes you win even with A-high. You must get better recognizing board texture and probability your opponent hit something or when he has worse nothing then you. When you start betting/raising you will get better reads of opponents by watching their responses and this will cause easier decisions for you on turn and river.
    • valancius
      Joined: 10.03.2009 Posts: 65
      "Unless you are a winning player, keep your hands off multi-tabling because all you will multiply then are your losses."
      "Many people don't take into consideration that playing more tables tires you out quicker, which means you will be able to play your best for shorter amounts of time." - full article.
      SCH article
      Flop play I
      Flop play II
      Play less, study more (math, pre flop/post flop strategy). Don't blame downswings cuz they don't exist (mathematical). Good luck.
    • ExMagnusxL
      Joined: 03.04.2010 Posts: 59
      Hey, thanks for the replies.

      Sismis, you are right in saying that I probably need to learn to read my opponents a little better and try to steal a little more in position with probably better nothing, I definitely have some experimenting left to do in this area.

      Valancius great quotes, however I am quite comfortable multitabling and do not find it taxing in the least. As well I appreciate the links to the strategy articles which I have read a few times over the last year, perhaps it is time to read them again. Also I do agree with you that downswings do not exist but there will be periods of hands where you run into many tough situations over and over again that you miss read because villains keep waking up with the nuts where they usually have very little. Especially when you are so much hoping that this strong hand is the one where you are ahead. I will be the first to admit that much of my downswing is due to poor play on my part and not folding when I am obviously behind. Also it doesn't help when your aces all in preflop get sucked out by sets and straights on river, as well as kings running into aces often not fun, and finding yourself in underset situations :f_cry: .
    • ExMagnusxL
      Joined: 03.04.2010 Posts: 59
      Here are my stats they should be helpful in sorting out my problem.

    • CrazyFishh
      Joined: 06.01.2011 Posts: 12
      I have been reading sites and articles about the red line a lot lately , because it is a problem for myself also.

      The conclusion i have come to is - The red line is mostly your post flop play. You can play like a robot preflop fine but post-flop is hard to play by guidelines(robotic). As a novice player myself ( I've reached 350 once and then lost everything on higher limits because i didn't follow BM , now i starting from 50 and moving up ).

      So the first thing you need to do is to play less tables. You might think it does not effect you but it does. You are not thinking much because of it.

      Several rules for better play i found for myself :

      1) When a flop appear have a plan already what you will do at turn/river!!!! I can not stress this enough. This basically slowed down my red line or outright stopped it.

      2) Do not bluff at nl2. Do it only against people who have 1500+ hands with pt and who are at the 'What my opponent has stage'.

      3) Do not Cbet loose-agressive/Calling stations. This will be -EV in the long run because you will fold a lot of turns/rivers since you are tight and will hesitate at later lanes.

      4) Steal blinds/flop more. Don't be afraid to reraise sometimes. But don't double barrel or dear god triple barrel on nl2.
      My 5 cents at least.

      So for a change try 4 tables and don't think that basic knowledge gonna give you any edge over players even at NL2. Read some sites , improve your game , understand concenpts behind your actions more.

      And yeah play 4 tables isntead of 16. It might be boring for you (Or slow action) but that is the only way you gonna learn stuff about poker in my opinion.
    • JonikoP
      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 600
      Your stats suggest that you are playing too passively pre flop.

      You are currently playing 15/7 which is probably one of the reasons your NSDW line is plunging so badly.

      As a general guide if your VPIP is 15 you should aim for a PRF of closer to 11. But, as you're playing 16 tables of NL2, I would suggest you tighten up even further and aim to play something closer to 14/10 or 12/8. If you are open limping stop doing it immediately!

      Playing fewer tables will also definitely help you NSD line and your learning process. The key is identify player types and then steal/c-bet/flat call accordingly. Whilst you might think you are comfortable 16 tabling you are probably missing way more info than you think.

      I can't see your c-bet % below but if it is under 50% you need to be more aggressive on the flop.
    • Dzy
      Joined: 01.09.2008 Posts: 217
      Continuation bet, please for the love of god, just doing it 100% is even better than 24.9% as you do now (if I read the stats correctly), pick the spots to NOT do it, very drawy boards which could not have hit you IE, or that hits your opponents range. Cbets will work a lot of the time, even on the microstakes and if you cbet 2/3 pot you only need to take it down 40% of the time to BE.
    • Llanlad
      Joined: 31.10.2009 Posts: 11
      I pressume this is full ring ?

      Looks like your cbet stat is closer to 50% as its taken the times you did not see a flop into consideration .

      But still 50% is too low ...i would add roughly 15% on that at least ... but dont start cbetting into dodgy flops against more than one person ..especially when your OOP ...

      15/7 preflop is caught between two styles.... considering your playing so many tables, you need to bring down your VPIP to say 12 and increase your PFR to around 10 ..

      You need to close the gap between the two .

      Any style is ok .. a 10/8, 11/9, 12/10, 13/11, 14/12 and higher as you get better postflop ... just dont try and do too much too quickly otherwise you will find yourself getting into far too many tricky situations post flop and not knowing what to do ... hence you fold and BOOM ... a falling red line.

      Dont call 3 bets too much ... unless villian never 3 bets and he has a big enough stack thats going to pay you off when you hit .

      Folding to a 3 bet is fine ...players at the mega micros are rarely 3 betting light.

      Start learning to isolate weak players more ... especially players that limp / call preflop ...a true sign of a poor player .... because they often fold to a cbet anyway ..

      Dont get fancy OOP ... position is your friend ... use it wisely .

      And steal a lot more ...around 40% is attainable ... steal all day with any 2 cards if the SB/BB never defends ..

      And never slow play .... value bet the hell out of these players.

      Good luck .. keep at it and things will get better.
    • weedo25
      Joined: 29.09.2010 Posts: 129
      maybe you should try 6max 4 tables to loose you game a little, to play more postflop. have fun a little while playing poker