[NL2-NL10] FR NL50 - Q6s Freeplay

    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
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      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      No Limit Hold'em
      Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
      Stacks
      Hero: $85.05
      MP2: $19.05

      Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is BB with Q :diamond: 6 :diamond:
      A player in MP is the only caller everyone else folds, I check on the BB.

      Flop: 2 :heart: K :diamond: Q :heart:( $1.25, 2 players)
      Hero checks, MP2 checks.

      Betting won't give me any information on where I stand. He could call with a better hand as well as a draw, if he calls, I'd be OOP and have no idea where I stand, and I can't call a bet for the same reasons. So I decide to check(/fold).

      Turn: A :heart:( $1.25, 2 players)
      Hero checks, MP2 checks.

      Decide to check(/fold) again for the same reasons I had on the flop.

      River: A :club:( $1.25, 2 players)
      Hero checks, MP2 checks.

      Given the action, I think it's very unlikely he has a King or an Ace, so I probably have the best hand. But he's probably not calling a bet here with a worse hand, so I decided to check(/call) this time.

      What you guys think about my thoughts on the hand and how I played?
  • 48 replies
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
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      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      preflop flop turn played perfectly.

      possibly a small bet on the river would've been justified, but a check is 100% fine by my books as well.
    • xylere
      xylere
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      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      I think halfpot bet on the flop is reasonable. You need him to fold only 1 out 3 times... And if he calls, than your position doesn`t really matter, since you hand is not much playable...imo
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
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      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Originally posted by xylere
      I think halfpot bet on the flop is reasonable. You need him to fold only 1 out 3 times... And if he calls, than your position doesn`t really matter, since you hand is not much playable...imo
      I don't get it. What do I gain by betting on the flop?

      He's only going to fold if he has a worse hand and no draws... Why would I want him to fold when he's drawing very thin?

      If he calls on a draw, misses his draw, and decide to make a move later on the hand, I will just have wasted $0.75 on that flop. And I will fold the best hand.

      If I don't bet and he decides to make a move with a draw, I'll fold the best hand anyway, but I won't waste $0.75 on the flop. :D
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
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      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      .
    • xylere
      xylere
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      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      It seems quite passive to me... what information you are willing to get?...
      If you are saying that he is drawing thin - valuebet flop...
      If he raises - just fold, what esle do you actually need to know?

      Whats a point of giving him a free card? there are 12 cards in the deck that allow him to bluff you out holding any two...

      I mean, if you feel like you can extract some value here - do it imo... otherwise it looks like you are trapping him with a middle pair...
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
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    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
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      Originally posted by xylere
      It seems quite passive to me... what information you are willing to get?...
      If you are saying that he is drawing thin - valuebet flop...
      If he raises - just fold, what esle do you actually need to know?

      Whats a point of giving him a free card? there are 12 cards in the deck that allow him to bluff you out holding any two...

      I mean, if you feel like you can extract some value here - do it imo... otherwise it looks like you are trapping him with a middle pair...
      I'm willing to get any information that helps me to know where I stand.

      If he's drawing very thin, why would I bet? The guy's probably not calling a pocketpair with two overcards. So what value does a bet have here?

      If he raises, it's an easy fold. And if he calls? I know nothing... He could have a King, maybe a Q with a better kicker, maybe a draw... then what? Check the turn and give him a free card if he's on a draw? Fire another barrel?

      @helemaalnicks: I wasn't slowplaying, I was holding trash. :P
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
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      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
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    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
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      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      the more i read the more i agree..

      i'm a tournament player though, so being wrong in BSS discussion is weight i'm more than happy to cope with :P
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
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      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Pocket pairs (thin) draws to set. :P

      I let someone bluff me out because it's a small mistake, as long as I keep making small mistakes and my opponents making big ones, I'm winning. Or do you really expect to play mistake-free?

      A probebet, if I'm not mistaken, is meant to help you know where you stand in the hand. If I'm called here, it won't help at all. If I take it down, I don't see any value in betting.

      And what's the problem about losing my BB? It's not even mine anymore, it's in the pot now. I'm not going to defend it like it's the end of the world, and risk losing my stack or a big chunk of it, because of 1 BB. Let him take it.

      I don't bet because I still don't see any value in betting there on the flop.
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
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      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Originally posted by helemaalnicks
      This whole site is build on, play strong, make easy decisions. Betting here is the best way to accomplish that.
      I don't see how betting the flop allows me to make an easy decision later on the hand.

      And I'm not exactly new to NL50. I tilted so much one day that I lost more than a 1/5 of my BR and decided to go back down to NL25.

      And I have watched ppl playing in NL50 and didn't notice any differences to ppl playing NL25. At least not on bodog. But I'm going off-topic here.
    • xylere
      xylere
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      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      I'm willing to get any information that helps me to know where I stand.

      how checking the flop helps you? If you raise and get re-raised you can assume that you are likely behind, but if you check and your opponent bets than:

      a probe bet only has to work 1/3 to pay off, and checking will make me bet at you with a pocketpair. What do you do then? let me take down the pot, while you are 80-20 shure that you have the best hand? Or call me down, like a proper calling station?



      If he's drawing very thin, why would I bet? The guy's probably not calling a pocketpair with two overcards. So what value does a bet have here?

      Is he calling his pockets on turn if you bet?? I might be wrong, but for me its clearly obvious that you want to take the pot right there, or make him pay for drawing thin... I can`t see what else you can possibly achieve here...

      If he raises, it's an easy fold. And if he calls? I know nothing... He could have a King, maybe a Q with a better kicker, maybe a draw... then what? Check the turn and give him a free card if he's on a draw? Fire another barrel?


      If he calls you decide on turn, in this case Ah I would check/fold and give up my flop bet, because I know it was +EV anyway... but I guess it depends on the opponent
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
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      Originally posted by helemaalnicks
      ...and not used to the large pokerroom.
      What do you mean?
    • xylere
      xylere
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      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939

      And what's the problem about losing my BB? It's not even mine anymore, it's in the pot now. I'm not going to defend it like it's the end of the world, and risk losing my stack or a big chunk of it, because of 1 BB. Let him take it.

      I don't bet because I still don't see any value in betting there on the flop.
      Its not about defending a BB, its about winning small pot with a small hand..imo
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
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      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Originally posted by xylere
      I'm willing to get any information that helps me to know where I stand.

      how checking the flop helps you? If you raise and get re-raised you can assume that you are likely behind, but if you check and your opponent bets than:

      a probe bet only has to work 1/3 to pay off, and checking will make me bet at you with a pocketpair. What do you do then? let me take down the pot, while you are 80-20 shure that you have the best hand? Or call me down, like a proper calling station?


      If he calls you decide on turn, in this case A :heart: I would check/fold and give up my flop bet, because I know it was +EV anyway... but I guess it depends on the opponent
      So, on the turn, you'll be making your decision based on what card comes. Not on what cards your opponent is holding. So, how does a bet helps you decide where you stand in the hand?


      If he's drawing very thin, why would I bet? The guy's probably not calling a pocketpair with two overcards. So what value does a bet have here?

      Is he calling his pockets on turn if you bet?? I might be wrong, but for me its clearly obvious that you want to take the pot right there, or make him pay for drawing thin... I can`t see what else you can possibly achieve here...
      Pay for drawing thin? I'm more likely to scare the guy than make him pay for drawing thin.
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
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      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
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    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
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      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Originally posted by xylere

      And what's the problem about losing my BB? It's not even mine anymore, it's in the pot now. I'm not going to defend it like it's the end of the world, and risk losing my stack or a big chunk of it, because of 1 BB. Let him take it.

      I don't bet because I still don't see any value in betting there on the flop.
      Its not about defending a BB, its about winning small pot with a small hand..imo
      Well, you said:"otherwise you wouldve lost your bb" and "but wanted to donate your blind to mpx". And you were not talking about defending blinds?

      I usually don't focus too much on winning a lot of small pots, since most players at the table are calling stations. I focus on taking down big pots with big hands.
    • xylere
      xylere
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      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939

      I usually don't focus too much on winning a lot of small pots, since most players at the table are calling stations. I focus on taking down big pots with big hands.
      This is your leak I guess, small pots make up a substantial part of your longterm profit.

      Pay for drawing thin? I'm more likely to scare the guy than make him pay for drawing thin.


      I don`t know how esle to explain my point of view, unfortunately. I will just try to extend your logic:

      how you will make him to pay on turn? will the situation change? I can see it possibly changing two ways:

      a) he will outdraw you
      b) scarecard will allow him to bluff you out
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
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      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      Originally posted by helemaalnicks
      What do you mean?


      i read usernews, saw you were @ bodog a month ago, don't respect that room at all tbh, due to me watching people who seemed to be playing a whole different cardgame.

      Or do you really expect to play mistake-free?


      yes, thats your goal. If you recognize the mistake, why dont you fix it?

      And what's the problem about losing my BB?


      youre giving up a free hand. It's the same thing as leaving the table anywhere else then on the button. Youre saying, i will play my bb, but only if i hit fh/trips/two pair on the flop, in which case your opponents know they have to get out. This happens 5% of the time.

      95% of the time, youre basically folding your bb preflop.

      you lose 9.5bb every 100 hands. In nl50, this is HUGE!

      you are a winning player now, but you're playing far from optimal that way. Because we (ps-ers) play very tight, we have to play the bb, otherwise we don't play enough, it's as simple as that.

      I'm crazy, i play lag postflop, but you are playing tight passive in this particular situation, which is very -ev. If you don't play your big blinds properly, you risk losing a lot of money on the long run, because the bb play is about 30% of our play, and being -ev on these 30% is not good for your winnings, and you won't get paid off with your monsters if you never bet in these situations, people will believe you.

      But i need sleep now.

      Good luck with poker!
      It's impossible to play mistake-free. No one plays mistake-free, if you think that's possible, than you're either wrong, or we have two different definitions for mistake.

      And let's just say that I'm not a... huh... PS-ers... I'm more a Sklanky-er... :P

      And I nearly always get paid off on my monster hands, so I must be doing something right... cause ppl just don't believe me when I have a monster.