Problem with unraised pots - need help!

    • SilverSag
      SilverSag
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 512
      My green line seems to be permanently stuck around 0 (0.16BB/100h over 30 000 hands on iPoker) , so I am slowly going over my stats to find leaks. After doing a quiz I realised that one of the problems might be playing in unraised pots.

      After I entered filter "called with previous limpers" on PT3 I had a downward slope with a winrate of -25 BB/100h. Both showdown (-15BB/100h) and non-showdown (-10BB/100h) are below zero.

      Can anyone please check this result on their stats and post it here for comparison? And maybe a coach can tell what an average winrate should be?

      And maybe some other suggestions how and where to look for leaks?

      Thank you in advance!
  • 15 replies
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      It depends a lot on the type of game you are playing (FR, 6 max, etc.)

      Does that filter consider the times when you check your big blind (sorry, I only use Holdem Manager)?

      From the database reviews that I have done winning players range from 5-10bb/100 to 30-40 bb/100 in these type of scenarios (limped pots, including the BB). However please keep in mind that the higher you play the less limped pots you'll play in. And FR games have more limped pots than 6 max games.
    • Hajler
      Hajler
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      Joined: 21.10.2008 Posts: 270
      Hello!

      What kind of hands are you limping behind with? Generally speaking people don't put much money into unraised pots without a fairly strong hand. If you get action in such a spot hands like TP are almost never going to be good. It's hard to say more without you posting a bit about what/how you are playing in these spots.

      Personally I would prefer an iso raise to limping behind in most spots, and I would say my range for limping behind is fairly small. I can't look at my HEM right now to check, but since you are in the red in a spot that would yield a winrate of 0BB if you folded pre, you would be better of just never limping as is.

      30k isn't that big of a sample but if you are losing a lot there is likely a problem with how you are playing in these spots. Maybe you could post some related hands here?


      PS. Hi Bogdan! I didn't see your post. :f_cool:
    • SilverSag
      SilverSag
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 512
      I am playing FR cash games. Limping with small pairs, suited faces, suited connectors if there was a limper already.

      No, I don't think that filter does not include checking BB...

      I am posting hands on forums already, I just wanted some general guidance numbers. There must be some, right?

      Also, I am still looking and can't find any articles with general ideas about leak finding and what filters and how to apply them in PT and HEM
    • MisClick
      MisClick
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      Joined: 30.05.2008 Posts: 1,186
      Originally posted by SilverSag

      I am posting hands on forums already, I just wanted some general guidance numbers. There must be some, right?

      Mhmm, I think not right. Looking at those stats is basically looking at your postflop play. I don't think average or general guidance stats will be of much use anyway, as it diverges so much from player to player at this point. They depend not only on your style, but on the style of the player/s you are playing against, in the strength of your hand, potential, etc. The analysis gets very complicated. You can try to characterize different styles of post-flop play by looking at certain stats, like bet%, checkraise%, float%, etc., but I think it has so many degrees of freedom that a generalization just misses the point. Instead of comparing your postflop play numbers to others, I think you need to find out what kind of player YOU are, your strengths and your weaknesses. That will only happen by studying YOUR game.
      Try to keep it simple. You can, for example, see what happens when you end up in position and out of position in the flop in a limped pot, and ask yourself, why? That could be a starting point in studying your postflop play.
      S.
      (By the way, I think the filter you looked at is really interesting. Nice finding :f_grin: )
    • SilverSag
      SilverSag
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      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 512
      Well, thanks... but I would still love to see some numbers :) It cannot be that difficult :) Or is it secret information? :)

      I heard the opinion that with limping hands you should not even be winning. That they are being played only for balance, so your AA and KK would stack up more often.

      In that case, maybe my loserate of minus 25BB/100h is OK?
    • Hajler
      Hajler
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.10.2008 Posts: 270
      No, it is not okay to lose that much, and Bogdan already gave you some numbers in his post. Try reading it again.

      Regarding the second thing you said - what??? That doesn't even make sense. How does limping crap and losing help you stack people with AA and KK? Also, in the micros balancing is completely unnecessary and pointless.
    • SilverSag
      SilverSag
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      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 512
      Originally posted by Hajler
      No, it is not okay to lose that much, and Bogdan already gave you some numbers in his post. Try reading it again.

      Regarding the second thing you said - what??? That doesn't even make sense. How does limping crap and losing help you stack people with AA and KK? Also, in the micros balancing is completely unnecessary and pointless.
      Upsss... I must be going blind or I was so tired that I really did not notice Bogdans numbers. :f_eek:

      Well, it did not make much sense to me either, thats why I am asking :f_biggrin:

      The way I understood is that by limping you increase your VP$IP numbers therefore you seem to much looser player and then opponents call your bigger bets, raises and reraises more often...
    • Hajler
      Hajler
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      Joined: 21.10.2008 Posts: 270
      Oh okay, I understand whats going on now. :f_cool:

      Either the person giving you the advice or you listening to it just horribly butchered the concept of opening with a wider range of hands and playing more aggressively in order to get more action with your big hands. Note that this involves raising, NOT limping, and even playing a wider range you should ideally not be losing with any of the hands you open. Also, as a requirement for this to work, your opponents need to actually pay attention to things other than their own cards, which is generally not the case in the micros.

      Hope it helps.
    • SiXAT
      SiXAT
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      Joined: 28.09.2008 Posts: 263
      Originally posted by SilverSag
      Well, thanks... but I would still love to see some numbers :) It cannot be that difficult :) Or is it secret information? :)

      I heard the opinion that with limping hands you should not even be winning. That they are being played only for balance, so your AA and KK would stack up more often.

      In that case, maybe my loserate of minus 25BB/100h is OK?
      why would you want to limp with AA and KK?
    • SilverSag
      SilverSag
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 512
      Originally posted by SiXAT
      Originally posted by SilverSag
      Well, thanks... but I would still love to see some numbers :) It cannot be that difficult :) Or is it secret information? :)

      I heard the opinion that with limping hands you should not even be winning. That they are being played only for balance, so your AA and KK would stack up more often.

      In that case, maybe my loserate of minus 25BB/100h is OK?
      why would you want to limp with AA and KK?
      You dont :f_biggrin: We were never talking about limping with AA and KK.
    • SiXAT
      SiXAT
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      Joined: 28.09.2008 Posts: 263
      Yeh, you you werent talking about limping with premium hands , then how the hell do you think it will help you stack your opponents if you limp loose?
      It will if you raise looser, 3bet looser..
      generally six handed if there is one limper its better to isolate than limp behind, and full ring with man limpers maybe you are limping too loose.
    • Fagin
      Fagin
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      Joined: 06.05.2008 Posts: 544
      I play NL4 FR on ipoker and just checked my stats for last month using the same filter.

      Out of just under 20k hands I played 656 where I "limped with previous callers" (showing a 22bb/100 win rate in these pots) - note that a seperate filter of "free look from bb" shows 800 hands (with a loss of -35.78bb/100 which seems huge!)

      The hands that made a profit were almost exclusively small to medium pps. Set mining can pay off!

      Most other hands showed a loss and the exceptions were probably situations where I won due to better post flop play or luck.
    • SiXAT
      SiXAT
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      Joined: 28.09.2008 Posts: 263
      ipoker includes vcpoker?
      cause i am playing NL4 SH on vcpoker and almost dont limp..
    • SilverSag
      SilverSag
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      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 512
      Originally posted by SiXAT
      ipoker includes vcpoker?
      cause i am playing NL4 SH on vcpoker and almost dont limp..
      We are not talking about SH here...
    • SiXAT
      SiXAT
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.09.2008 Posts: 263
      Originally posted by SilverSag
      Originally posted by SiXAT
      ipoker includes vcpoker?
      cause i am playing NL4 SH on vcpoker and almost dont limp..
      We are not talking about SH here...
      so try playing SH maybe it will sit you more