Mixing minraises and shoves

    • Anssi
      Anssi
      Black
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 2,173
      According to nash, you can shove 7% from utg 15bb deep 9-handed. What if you minraise your full range instead of shoving? What kind of range should you be opening from utg now? Let's assume opponents play perfectly against our range.

      I know this is rather broad question and hard to answer, but I'd just like to have some discussion about minraising in shove spots and how you can exploit regs with it.
  • 8 replies
    • lessthanthreee
      lessthanthreee
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.06.2009 Posts: 16,300
      im never shoving in that situation. MR for balance is optimal. not only can you MR/fold bottom of your range against very tight 3bet shoves you will get a lot more value with top of your range. it also allows you to open your range up a bit, but more from late position, because from EP there are just too many opponents to go through. if you MR/fold a hand like A8o,KJo then you can MR/fold atc as long as your opponents dont have a flatting range
    • Anssi
      Anssi
      Black
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 2,173
      Let's say you are 15bb deep and everyone behind you are 15bb deep. At which point do you start shoving instead of minraising? Do you ever mix the 2 from some position?
    • typohh
      typohh
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.09.2008 Posts: 1,188
      With 8 players behind (UTG), I usually opt to open shove below 8bb, and open raise with more than that.

      With 1 player behind (SB), I usually opt to open shove below 16bb, and open raise with more than that.

      I belive its better to mix open shove and open raise, because of ICM effect you can shove speculative hands, that are impossible to call 3bet with. Yet have enough equity that opponent cant call with anything but really strong hands.

      You open raise small with monsters and whatever part of your range you can include profitably in that range. Which probably includes hands such as Kxo type hands. Due to ICM effect you can often make the range so wide that you fold over 50% of the time, yet opponent cant shove ATC profitably on you.

      Anyways, have to run the math on this to make sure, for now its just a gut feeling.
    • LgWz
      LgWz
      Black
      Joined: 26.05.2007 Posts: 7,641
      Originally posted by Anssi
      Let's say you are 15bb deep and everyone behind you are 15bb deep. At which point do you start shoving instead of minraising? Do you ever mix the 2 from some position?
      I like shoving if I'm likely to get called and my hand sucks to see flops with, or if I have a clear +EV push but opponents are likely to 3bet me so if I decided to raise I'd have to raise/fold. On the other hand vs really tight opponents I can raise/fold clear +EV pushes because they won't 3bet shove worse hands.

      From early position I'm more likely to raise/fold in a table with many regs or people who will play push/fold. It sucks so much when I open TT or AK from EP with more than 10 big blinds and get called oop by some fish.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by LgWz
      It sucks so much when I open TT or AK from EP with more than 10 big blinds and get called oop by some fish.
      It can feel uncomfortable, but is that actually a bad situation for you?

      I am more worried about a good player who will stop-and-go from the blinds, or who may flat-call in position and then take the pot away when we both miss.
    • Anssi
      Anssi
      Black
      Joined: 03.07.2008 Posts: 2,173
      Yeah, bad players will also stack off with their A3 against your AK or 98 against your JJ. They also fold to c-bet most of time.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      If people pay for a draw, they won't fold when it hits. People rarely fold when their hands seem to improve. It can be annoying when someone calls with K7 and hits a king against your TT, but they will also pay off when they flop a 7, and much of the time they will flop no pair and no draw.
    • LgWz
      LgWz
      Black
      Joined: 26.05.2007 Posts: 7,641
      On the other hand they'll also fold postflop with hands that would have called a push, as in fish calls 99, flop AQx.