Fifty50 sng's

    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
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      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      What basic adoptions should one do with hi strategy in these sng's?

      And will these be incredibly soft in the beginning so it might actually be a good idea to start grinding these in february?
  • 22 replies
    • viewer88
      viewer88
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      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      They sound cool and they are no doubt gonna be super soft. Now just to figure out how to play 'm :p

      If there's enough traffic you can 20+ table these games... you're always minimum 6 handed.
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
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      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      Originally posted by viewer88
      They sound cool and they are no doubt gonna be super soft. Now just to figure out how to play 'm :p

      If there's enough traffic you can 20+ table these games... you're always minimum 6 handed.
      yea due to the fact these are so easily multitable-able (lol) I think they might get reg infested kinda soon... sounds like heaven for sng grinders going for supernova..

      Also I'm pretty sad cuz I feel like new games should attract fish rather than mass multitablers.. since I think all these multi tablers will be the death of online poker one day...
      And imo new game formats should be even more variance heavy so the fish will just think he's getting unlucky..

      Something like 10 player sng's where winner takes all would benefit us more in the long run imo :D
    • goldchess
      goldchess
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      Joined: 17.02.2010 Posts: 641
      Originally posted by Hlynkinn

      Something like 10 player sng's where winner takes all would benefit us more in the long run imo :D
      Although fish will no longer make their horrendous ICM blunders :f_frown:
    • pzhon
      pzhon
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      It looks like these are a cross between winner-takes-all and DoN. I plan to add the format to the structures supported by ICM Explorer.
    • Steelbrewer
      Steelbrewer
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      Joined: 22.04.2009 Posts: 580
      Looks kinda complicated DoN idea on one side and aggression rewarding payout structure on the other.
    • Zervin311
      Zervin311
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      Joined: 04.06.2009 Posts: 90
      40 Tabled these last night, with one computer screwup folding all my 40 tournaments causing me to cash 0 and another one folding away most of my chips I ended up break even at the end of the night. Decent format, decently soft, I'm guessing because you buggers haven't learned how to play it yet :) Releasing strategy for this format would probably ruin it for everyone.
    • Zervin311
      Zervin311
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      Joined: 04.06.2009 Posts: 90
      Originally posted by Hlynkinn
      Originally posted by viewer88
      They sound cool and they are no doubt gonna be super soft. Now just to figure out how to play 'm :p

      If there's enough traffic you can 20+ table these games... you're always minimum 6 handed.
      yea due to the fact these are so easily multitable-able (lol) I think they might get reg infested kinda soon... sounds like heaven for sng grinders going for supernova..

      Also I'm pretty sad cuz I feel like new games should attract fish rather than mass multitablers.. since I think all these multi tablers will be the death of online poker one day...
      And imo new game formats should be even more variance heavy so the fish will just think he's getting unlucky..

      Something like 10 player sng's where winner takes all would benefit us more in the long run imo :D
      * sounds like heaven for sng grinders going for supernova..*

      No, this is horrible for VPP's :P 1.34 or something per 5.24$ one or something like that.
    • viewer88
      viewer88
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      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      Maybe we are all wrong and our edge is a lot smaller in these games... it's half DON and half winner takes all... I think that makes the mistakes smaller.
    • DONgreat
      DONgreat
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      Joined: 10.02.2011 Posts: 101
      hi intersting thread
      iv just signed up for pokerstrategy due to having to move away from stars due to the introduction of fifty50s as a replacement for dons and im going to start on ongame this month.

      I think there are several things about these fifty50s that are going to be troublesome and that is why i have moved away fromstars and dont wish to play them:

      1) the rake is higher than the dons were on stars moving from 4% to over 5% (turbo ones) which means that our winrate has to be higher to make a profit

      2) all the us based players who were regs on the dons have no access to the euro networks with a high don traffic so they have little options available and most of which will move to fifty50s making the tables exremely hard to beat

      3) the payout structure is crazy and the format is crazy. Its a game were the straetegy is wedged between survival and chip accumulation whih makes it really important for both a high itm rate and a high finishing chip total which is going to be very hard to consistantly manage

      4) due to the added difficulty as compared to dons bubble strategy and decision on whether to ship it in have many more variables to consider now due to the fact that survival is not paramount anymore and due to the importance of chip sizes players all in calling ranges are going to be much wider so decision will take longer meaning that we have to play less tables at once and therefore our hourly rates are surely going to drop

      5) the edge that a reg has over a fish in these is actually lower than a don. I am sure that many mistakes that fish make in dons such as playing to loose early on and stacking off or doubling up early with jj ak etc are less a mistake in fifty50 than in dons. Also the fish call all ins much wider in dons which is surely less of an error in fifty50. Remeber that a large portion of the fish in these games are going to be ex don fish so that is why im using them as the purpose of my post.

      6) good reason why pokerstars regs played dons was due to the low variance and i think that the variance in these fifty50s is going to be way higher than the dons obviously due to the importance of chip accumulation.

      one of my freinds who is also an ex don grinder on stars toldf me that he cashed in 57 out fo 100 of these and made a loss due to the prize structure so its definately worth taking note that even with high itm if we playto tight we are still going to lose.
    • variancekiller
      variancekiller
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      Joined: 20.09.2010 Posts: 896
      Originally posted by DONgreat
      one of my freinds who is also an ex don grinder on stars toldf me that he cashed in 57 out fo 100 of these and made a loss due to the prize structure so its definately worth taking note that even with high itm if we playto tight we are still going to lose.
      He must not be a really good reg, since I get 1-5th like 63% of the time in 9-man top 3.
      seems to me that you need more than 57% wins if you are a DoN grinder, and winrate in 50/50 should be a 3-4% higher than that probably.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      The same player would normally place 1st-5th more often in a 9-player tournament than a 10-player tournament.

      Fifty50 tournaments definitely require a different strategy than DoN tournaments. You can't just aim for the money, and hope you have enough chips afterwards.

      You can't rely on opponents being as risk-averse as they would be, and you should not be as risk-averse. To get all-in on the first hand in a Double or Nothing tournament with no dead money, you would want to have 64.3% equity, a 14.3% risk premium. In a 50-30-20 tournament with 10 players, you want 54.2% equity, a 4.2% risk premium. In a Fifty50 tournament, you want 56.3% equity. That 6.3% risk premium is much closer to the risk premium in the 50-30-20 structure than in a DoN tournament. With 6 equal stacks on the bubble, the risk premium in a Fifty50 tournament is 12.5%, lower than on the first hand of a DoN.
    • fembot26
      fembot26
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      Joined: 25.08.2010 Posts: 72
      pzhon, how are you calculating the equities for a Fifty50 tournament - do you work out ICM equities for the fixed-prizes half of the prize pool and then add each player's share of equity in the other half based on stack-sizes? If so, do you weight a player's share of the second half of the prize pool by his probability of finishing in the money?

      (A possibly more interesting problem, in my opinion, would be modelling equities in the 'knockout' SNGs - the obvious scheme of adding ICM equities to stack-proportional equities would seem to be inadequate for these. I thought of using Monte Carlo simulation to predict each player's expected number of future bounties, but a large number of simulations would probably be required in order to obtain acceptable precision, although more realistic simulation might result from incorporating statistics on each player's shoving and calling probabilities. Such simulations of all-in confrontations might also be a suitable approach for Fifty50s when the blinds are high and players have begun to use a push-or-fold strategy. Could there be broadly similar solved problems in statistical mechanics that would help in modelling both of these kinds of tournaments? I don't know enough about that area.)
    • pzhon
      pzhon
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I have added Fifty50 tournaments to the registered version of ICM Explorer. SNG Wizard has an update this week which computes Fifty50 equities, too.

      Basically, you can imagine that Fifty50s are half DoN and half winner-takes-all. I'll go into more detail in my Fifty50 theory video.

      I don't know the right way to handle knockout SNGs. In one simple model of how players are knocked out, your chance to knock out each player turns out to be your proportion of the total chips, so as long as you aren't knocking someone out on this hand, you can approximate the equities by a weighted average with a winner-takes-all tournament. That is based on this model, not diffusion, and I think you may get different results with a diffusion model which might be more accurate.
    • fembot26
      fembot26
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      Joined: 25.08.2010 Posts: 72
      Thanks for the information and suggestions, pzhon - I look forward to your Fifty50 theory video!

      I'm confused by your mention of diffusion, though - don't tournaments play out in a way that resembles concentration rather than diffusion of chips among the players? (Or are you saying a time-reversed diffusion model is appropriate?) Is there something I'm missing here?
    • pzhon
      pzhon
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      The diffusion model does not mean the chips are diffusing among more and more players. It means you predict the finishes based on a random walk so that each player has an equal chance to take a chip from each other player, i.e., a Brownian motion.
    • LgWz
      LgWz
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      Joined: 26.05.2007 Posts: 7,641
      So nice to see the "useless" stuff I learned in Uni applied to poker models :s_love:
    • pzhon
      pzhon
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      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I'm not sure when my video will be completed, so I thought I would post a couple of points here from the video.

      As far as the ICM is concerned, the Fifty50 structure is equivalent to a prize structure of 60-10-10-10-10. You can use this in the Nash calculator. SNG Wizard already has something like this implemented despite reporting the prize structure as 20-20-20-20-20, which is not correct. The registered version of my program ICM Explorer handles Fifty50 calculations.

      The risk aversion with equal stacks in a Fifty50 is the same as for the final table of an 18 player tournament with prizes of 40-30-20-10. The risk aversion is never as high as on the bubble of a 50-30-20 SNG.
    • ErikNick
      ErikNick
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      Joined: 10.07.2006 Posts: 5,921
      Some News?
    • Sashalyuber
      Sashalyuber
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      Joined: 19.01.2010 Posts: 52
      Howdy there Pzhon just wondering how the video is going? I'd love it if you were still working on it and about to post it. Your advice is always quite helpful :)
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