Feedback Thread: Beginner Quiz (6)

  • 18 replies
    • santostr
      santostr
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2009 Posts: 663
      Q6:

      Ok, MP2 is tight. But what is his range there?
      55/A5s?
      Would he flat AA, KK, AK?

      I'd call/re-evaluate.
    • NatRPheM
      NatRPheM
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.10.2008 Posts: 391
      I am really happy my solutions were`nt the same as the test wanted me to have, thats all I can say. That way of playing is probably good for a beginner though so I guess I should not have taken the test to begin with (pun intended) :)
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      Originally posted by santostr
      Q6:

      Ok, MP2 is tight. But what is his range there?
      55/A5s?
      Would he flat AA, KK, AK?

      I'd call/re-evaluate.
      folding is best by far.. he's tight and I'm pretty sure he has 5x here.. he seems to limp some hands so 56s might be in his range.. but I don't think he would often reraise Kx here.. So your not beating anything.. and you have the original flop better and two opponents to act behind you.. and I think calling is pretty spewy..

      ---

      Q5:
      7% pfr might be from every position.. a lot of players on these limits aren't as positionally aware as the should be. but I think nonetheless that he's raising 99+ AQ+ from UTG (5%) and without more detailed reads we might get him to call the push with his TT+ perhaps.. So I think we are loosing a lot of value flat calling without a more detailed read?
      Also his 120 bet sizing doesn't really make him look like the best player in the world.

      Q2:
      I think calling is more profitable.. we can also stack on low boards since he's so loose

      other than that I agreed with the test..
      and natrphem if your play was really different from the quiz I would say you have some leaks.
    • NatRPheM
      NatRPheM
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.10.2008 Posts: 391
      If this is supose to be optimal no matter your skill level then I will say this test has alot of leaks. But thats what I like about poker, people not agreeing, makes me money :) Btw I had 19/31 or something so sure some of the plays there are def good. I just dont agree with some of the rest.

      Edit: Take into account I have never used a HUD so I am not to familiar with with stats at all, so some of the plays I might agree with without knowing. But some of the explanations I know I dont agree with.
    • fl4m3r
      fl4m3r
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.11.2009 Posts: 56
      I dont agree with alot of spots here. Pushing with 30+BB left, raising gets 0 points wherea push gets 3 and call gets 1. not logical

      I merely just pass... 20points only
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      Originally posted by fl4m3r
      I dont agree with alot of spots here. Pushing with 30+BB left, raising gets 0 points wherea push gets 3 and call gets 1. not logical

      I merely just pass... 20points only
      if your talking about the TT hand it's pretty logical.. raising is really ugly in that spot... but like I stated above I think calling might be slightly more +ev than shoving there
    • LgWz
      LgWz
      Black
      Joined: 26.05.2007 Posts: 7,641
      I call the TT hand as well.
    • santostr
      santostr
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2009 Posts: 663
      Originally posted by Hlynkinn
      Originally posted by santostr
      Q6:

      Ok, MP2 is tight. But what is his range there?
      55/A5s?
      Would he flat AA, KK, AK?

      I'd call/re-evaluate.
      folding is best by far.. he's tight and I'm pretty sure he has 5x here.. he seems to limp some hands so 56s might be in his range.. but I don't think he would often reraise Kx here.. So your not beating anything.. and you have the original flop better and two opponents to act behind you.. and I think calling is pretty spewy..

      You are probably right, but let me think a little bit more:
      The reasonig in the quiz doesn't make much sense IMO.
      "An opponent with these tight stats will not raise hands like QQ or JJ and rarely limp hands like KJ preflop. "
      If he doesn't limp KJ I don't think he limps 56s or A5.

      If think he might limp one of those: 56s, A5s. Not both, not always, cause his stats are so tight.
      I think he might aswell limp KTs+.
      He just raises 6%, maybe AK is also sometimes in his limping range.

      As you can see:
      1) His value range on that flop is realy thin.
      2) If he has trips on that dry board, why is he raising?


      Pretty weird hand IMO.
    • santostr
      santostr
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2009 Posts: 663
      I liked the quiz and passed to some friends who play with me in a live game.
      They are not experts, but decent.

      We think this quiz has too many tricky spots to be called a begginers quiz.
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      I think we should push with queens at question 5.

      Question 8 with kings I would push. I don't like flatting with kings at all.

      Question 10 with shortie stack I think he will calls us if we push.

      Man do I push too much or what..This quiz is weird.

      I totally agree with santostz this is NOT a beginner quiz.
    • goldchess
      goldchess
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.02.2010 Posts: 641
      Am I the only one who just raises for value in Q4?
      Pushing generates too much fold equity imo.
    • ghaleon
      ghaleon
      Black
      Joined: 17.10.2007 Posts: 5,877
      Pretty much same style for me as quiz creator. Though I don't really like calling with KK in Q8. UTG range should be wide with those 2.5bb that we can isolate him pretty loose. So I am iso shoving with monsters as well (though this might be unrelevant here). Also by flatting BB will actually get very good odds for quite a few hands to call with and how easily he will give value postflop to empty sidepot? Well might be good line versus unknowns in these limits.

      In Q2 with TT I like shove more because of loose MP2(though small sample). SB position in very likely 4way (or even 5way) pot rarely creates good situations with TT imo. Hero has to be obviously carefull with those other villains and even medium size fish might not go easily too crazy in such multiway pot. Or am I totally wrong? Referring to Hlynkinn comment: "Q2:I think calling is more profitable.. we can also stack on low boards since he's so loose"
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      yea your right... We can't really go crazy on flops with low cards due to it most likely being a 4-5 way action.. so we are pretty much only calling for set value... Still think it's a slightly better line tho.. Hopefully we'll get some judges in here...


      Question 8 with kings I would push. I don't like flatting with kings at all.

      calling is way better.. it gives your opponent a chance to resteal and to do a loose call and hit a 1 pair or whatever.. It's profitable to slow play KK here against unknowns.. of course against thinking opponents you need to shove your premium hands here to balance out your loose iso shove range here.. but against unknowns optimal play by far is to flat call..

      Well might be good line versus unknowns in these limits.

      Good line against unknowns on any limit as far as I know :)


      Question 10 with shortie stack I think he will calls us if we push.

      making a standard 3bet also makes the shortie committed against us if he wants to continue participating in the pot (don't really see any player raise/folding with 400 chips to be honest).. so the affect our raise has on him is pretty much the same as if we had gone all in.
      the reasoning we don't shove is because it would be an overshove to the deep stacks on our left hand..

      and I agree with you guys it's imo a bit tough to be a beginner quiz.. but thats just positive imo... Gets us to think and we even got a nice conversation going on here.. :)
      The quiz the other day which was for gold+ members was actually easier imo and was called "Tricky spots"...
      =)

      and @santostr imo I take 11/6 stats as a dude that likes to limp some hands, is capable of limping monsters but most of the times raises his AQ+ TT-QQ r something like that..
      So saying that with his stats he's rarely raising QQ JJ doesn't make sense to me.. and KJs+ is def in his limp range..
      And I think unknowns do reraise with trips here.. and I think with the smallish amount of information we have on him we can't assume he will try to trap when hitting trips here.. So if he's doing it with 55, A5, 56, KT+ we have some equity.. but 2 tough streets to go and bunch of other players in the pot..
      yea def interesting hand...

      Lets see if we can't get some of the coaches or professional hand judges to clear up those spots we are having trouble with...
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      I think this shouldn't be called a beginner quiz, and at least some of the scores should be adjusted. I think some of the questions are very strange, and beginners should concentrate on getting common, important decisions correct rather than trying to get rare and debatable decisions right.

      Here are the questions where I disagreed with the answers:

      2) TT in SB facing limp, raise, and call. I would make a small raise. I think pushing is ok, but I would raise to 340. This sets up several possibilities.

      If the limper pushes, I fold. Limps from the UTG position are much more likely to be traps than open limps from later positions, and TT does terribly against a trapping range.

      If there is a call or two, and then the short stack pushes, I will isolate. It is important that the raise amount is chosen so that a push from the short stack counts as a full raise and reopens the action.

      5) QQ in HJ after 10/7 UTG raise. Despite the tighter-than-normal stats, this is not a total nit. I think QQ is still ahead of the UTG player's raising range, and calling sets up some bad situations, such as when there is an overcall. I would still reraise with the intention of calling a push from the PFR, but not of calling a cold push.

      My inclination some years ago would be to flat-call the raise. Reraising with QQ against my UTG raises would not be optimal. However, I have found that others, even with stats like 10/7 (and raising tighter than 7% from UTG) will sometimes have odd hands like 88 or JTs, and it is good to protect against the occasional speculative hands by reraising. Also, the raise to 4 bb suggests that the UTG player's range is weighted more toward TT, JJ and AK than KK+.
    • fcumred
      fcumred
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.03.2008 Posts: 55
      I cannot for the life of me understand why you would flat call with KK ?

      Isn't the whole premise of poker getting your money in good with the best hand. Slowplaying is a recipe for disaster here, as we've most probably all found at some point or other.

      If I flat call and the original raiser is playing a marginal hand like AJ or A10 I am giving him in essence a free shot at the flop. If he wants to see the flop then with a hand like KK I am going to make him pay to see it. I am most certainly not going to give him a chance to spike an ace on a cheap flop.

      As for the QQ, again, I completely disagree with calling. I would re-raise every time. If he shoves then with QQ I am going to call so why give him a cheap chance to hit an overcard.

      If I believe I have the best hand ( and with both KK and QQ you have to realistically believe you are ahead ) then I am not going to let them in lightly. If they want to take my chips then they have to pay to do it. I never give my chips away cheaply.
    • Hlynkinn
      Hlynkinn
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2008 Posts: 4,998
      It's about making the most +ev move.. a lot of players seem to think way too much about protecting their hands and loose value by doing so.. KK hand is a very standard call imo like I mentioned above..
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Originally posted by fcumred
      I cannot for the life of me understand why you would flat call with KK ?

      Isn't the whole premise of poker getting your money in good with the best hand.
      No! That's a common misconception which overgeneralizes from playing against calling stations. There are a lot of ways to win other than getting your money in good. You can bluff, you can protect the best hand, you can control the size of the pot you lose when your opponent has the better hand, you can lose your stack but bust out in the money instead of 4th, etc.

      However, when you have a very strong hand, like KK, and you are not very risk-averse, you should be thinking about how to get your opponents to put in more money. Calling will get more action from the big blind than pushing will. Calling will let the big blind overcall with hands like QT or K9 and then overvalue top pair hands and pay off your overpair, letting you "get your money in good."


      Slowplaying is a recipe for disaster here, as we've most probably all found at some point or other.
      Flat-calling has its risks. However, the chance that a disconnected offsuit hand outflops an overpair is about 3.5%, while its chance to flop one pair is about 30%. Possible flopped straights or flushes do not add much. The main worry is that the big blind might have a weak Ax hand and then might flop an ace. It is much more likely that the big blind will flop one lower pair and then run into trouble, paying off your overpair, than that your KK will get outflopped.

      With no sidepot, you don't have to worry as much about someone who misses the flop bluffing you on an ace-high flop. If the original raiser has Ax, then you don't lose much on ace-high flops by letting the big blind in cheaply.
    • Luupainaja
      Luupainaja
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.03.2010 Posts: 1,148

      You are probably right, but let me think a little bit more:
      The reasonig in the quiz doesn't make much sense IMO.
      "An opponent with these tight stats will not raise hands like QQ or JJ and rarely limp hands like KJ preflop. "
      If he doesn't limp KJ I don't think he limps 56s or A5.

      If think he might limp one of those: 56s, A5s. Not both, not always, cause his stats are so tight.
      I think he might aswell limp KTs+.
      He just raises 6%, maybe AK is also sometimes in his limping range.

      As you can see:
      1) His value range on that flop is realy thin.
      2) If he has trips on that dry board, why is he raising?


      Pretty weird hand IMO.
      I like santostr reasoning. Tight player wouldnt limp 5x there and if he does, he would also limp KTs+ hands, in which case we get value from raising on the flop. 6% range is 88+, AQ+ so i dont think AK is in his limping range.

      I'd get it in on the flop and expect to see him calling with KJs.

      Reasoning in the quiz doesnt make sense imo too.