SSS with a 25 BB buyin?

    • LimeAndCoconut
      LimeAndCoconut
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2007 Posts: 96
      Would it be profitable to play the SSStrategy buying in with 25 BBs instead of 20. I've played poker for a while and am really only playing SSS to build up a bankroll, and it's pretty frustrating. Still, I'm playing tight and following the SHC and after a couple of orbits, I'll double up. But by then, in NL10 (especially on Full Tilt which is 9 handed), I'm usually down to around $1.60 from the starting $2.
      I find 2 negatives with this. First and clearly, when you double up, you make less. 40c isn't much but in the long run it makes a difference. Second, when you follow the SHC and end up raising with marginal hands like AJ and 77, you're almost always pot commited. Now, regularly that would be OK, because if everyone limped ahead of you, they're probably not very strong. But especially in these micro limits, so many people limp in with AA, KK, or just flat call raises throughout the whole hand, knowing nothing about protection. (I just played a hand where 3 people limped, then the button limped with AA. I raised from the SB with AQ and 2 of the limpers called and then button minraised.)
      Now, I think that buying in with as little as 5 BBs more would help solve both of these problems, while keeping the advantages of the SSS. On NL10, you would buy in for $2.50 and follow the SSS the exact same way. But if you get reraised with marginal hands where you are certain you are behind, you are more free to fold them. When you double, you would make an extra 50c. I don't know if you would rebuy below $2 or $1.50 but you would still leave the table at $3, up 5 BBs.
      I know a big part of SSS is that because you have so little, people aren't going to be afraid of your stack. But frankly, whoever's calling a $2 all in is calling $2.50. 5 BBs is little enough that it doesn't scare people away.

      Any thoughts
  • 10 replies
    • Utahmar
      Utahmar
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2006 Posts: 2,414
      Im playing sss on Full Tilt. I think its a minefield ( wrote this down quite a few times ).
      My variance is utterly high.
      Even on NL25 they play tight, and very agressively. Not very good for sss, as you got raised out from many hands preflop, and with the 9 player tables, blind chew you up. And no limpers with dead money, or lose players to double up.
      Personally i will cancel sss in january on Full Tilt, after 40k hands im losing. Most time bad luck also.
      But have to adjust also a bit, at Full Tilt, many players really can play, even at NL10, NL25. And if you play many hands a day, they know you quite soon, and play specifically against you.
      So, you have to adjust.
      I dont think more buyin is the solution. You have to rethink cbet ( they will reraise you allin with any pair in pocket, or in the flop ). You have to use reads on players, even at NL10, play less tables, so you can do this. Very important. You have to resteal. As they steal a LOT. Try steal on players you are playing many hands at same table, use image.

      On the other hand if you have roll for BSS, they pay off sets or better on the flop all time.

      If you like to talk about this subject more, you can contact me on messenger, icq, skype.
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      Originally posted by LimeAndCoconut
      Would it be profitable to play the SSStrategy buying in with 25 BBs instead of 20.
      No, it wouldn`t. Why:

      I find 2 negatives with this. First and clearly, when you double up, you make less. 40c isn't much but in the long run it makes a difference.
      It is one way assumtion. Yes, you win less, but you loose less also. This decreases variance and make swings softer. Actually, playing with smaller stack may be even more +ev. On NL 200 I rebuy when I have 8-10BB, instead of 15BB and play according to sklansky-chubukov chart for 10BB stack. There is no reason to do it on NL 10$, because opposition is bad and they will play badly against you.

      Second, when you follow the SHC and end up raising with marginal hands like AJ and 77, you're almost always pot commited.
      That`s the good news. Beeing pot commited in many cases allow you to make mathematical correct headache free decision.

      Opponents are almost always making mistakes when playing against us with pocket pairs and suited connectors, because they will never get proper implied odds -> the loose money in a long run.

      with a stack, of lets say 29BB you give your opponent, 7.2:1 its still not enough, but its getting closer to boarderline.

      Overall, playing with 25BB will make your decisions way harder, increase your variance and ruin most of SSS's fundamentals.
    • LimeAndCoconut
      LimeAndCoconut
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.12.2007 Posts: 96
      Originally posted by xylere

      It is one way assumtion. Yes, you win less, but you loose less also. This decreases variance and make swings softer. Actually, playing with smaller stack may be even more +ev.
      Yes, the variance will be bigger, but that doesn't by any means mean less profit. Sure, if i lose 5 buyins one day, I'll lose $2.50 more, but in the long run, variance really doesn't matter.

      That`s the good news. Beeing pot commited in many cases allow you to make mathematical correct headache free decision.


      I understand that it makes easier decisions, which is great for learning. But there are times where experience and using your own jugdment allows you to make more +EV moves.
    • ManniXXX
      ManniXXX
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.09.2007 Posts: 707
      Originally posted by Utahmar
      Im playing sss on Full Tilt. I think its a minefield ( wrote this down quite a few times ).
      My variance is utterly high.
      Even on NL25 they play tight, and very agressively. Not very good for sss, as you got raised out from many hands preflop, and with the 9 player tables, blind chew you up. And no limpers with dead money, or lose players to double up.
      Personally i will cancel sss in january on Full Tilt, after 40k hands im losing. Most time bad luck also.
      But have to adjust also a bit, at Full Tilt, many players really can play, even at NL10, NL25. And if you play many hands a day, they know you quite soon, and play specifically against you.
      So, you have to adjust.
      I dont think more buyin is the solution. You have to rethink cbet ( they will reraise you allin with any pair in pocket, or in the flop ). You have to use reads on players, even at NL10, play less tables, so you can do this. Very important. You have to resteal. As they steal a LOT. Try steal on players you are playing many hands at same table, use image.

      On the other hand if you have roll for BSS, they pay off sets or better on the flop all time.

      If you like to talk about this subject more, you can contact me on messenger, icq, skype.
      Lol. I was sat giggling my way through that entire post, You've hit the nail on the head here buddy, any new FT players should really heed this advice.

      Overall from SSS I'm down and I have played BSS on 2 occasions (slap on the wrist for no BRM) and both times I have doubled up for the exact reason mentioned, being paid off very easily on a set or better.

      Personally I think I'm switching to 9 player turbo sngs as I find the opponents very easy to play against, with little or no knowledge in how to play in the late blinds. In the low buyins this seems the case anyway.
    • drachdudek
      drachdudek
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.11.2007 Posts: 656
      I would say SSS is good, also for Full Tilt, but every mistake is costly, so you have to reduce mistakes, not following SSS and tilting is even more costly. Discipline is important, undercover82 videos can also help fro NL10, he made 2 i think (he most of the time sais, patience is very important), sometimes he is explaining where and why and how to try to steal (position, opponents stack, your stack etc..), so i will stick to SSS until i reach proper bankroll to move to BSS.

      BTW, the last article about concentracion is VERY GOOD, read it, it will also help.

      Drach
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      understand that it makes easier decisions, which is great for learning. But there are times where experience and using your own jugdment allows you to make more +EV moves.


      Likely -EV) The main idea of SSS is playing pre-flop - your goal is to move all-in preflop. With 25BB you make things more complex, not more profitable.
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Originally posted by xylere

      The main idea of SSS is playing pre-flop - your goal is to move all-in preflop. With 25BB you make things more complex, not more profitable.
      That's exactly why the SSS is advantageous for beginners. You are not getting into trouble because you have easy decisions. Of course you don't get the maximum out of every situation. But that's the trade off for a much easier strategy than the BSS is.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • Vezer
      Vezer
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.06.2007 Posts: 889
      Hi everyone!
      I think SSS is succesful if you play on the good tables. SSS is about table choosing. Easy to write this fact, but ... What is the ideal Table with SS??
      -High Pot seeing frequency (35%or more)
      -MORE fish, more money
      -no good players there

      In my experience (NL10-NL20 sometimes NL50) I can make profit for example on a tight table on NL50.... I had No problem. There was 5-6 Rock on a FR NL50 table.
      What do u think? What kind of table is the best with SSS?
    • carusel
      carusel
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.10.2007 Posts: 202
      on NL10 I used to rebuy if I had less than 2$
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      well, table selection is not that crucial. On NL 50 most of the tables are good, just choose ones with higher %flop seen and average pot.

      On higher limits there was no table selection for me at all, I simply played on all available tables)