Folding TPTK to Aggression on River

    • ExMagnusxL
      ExMagnusxL
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.04.2010 Posts: 58
      Examples of not doing this:

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.01/$0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)

      Known players:
      MP2:
      $1.82
      MP3:
      $1.15
      CO:
      $1.98
      BU:
      $2.29
      SB:
      $2.00
      BB:
      $5.66
      UTG2:
      $1.61
      MP1 (Hero):
      $3.99


      Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K, A.
      UTG2 raises to $0.08, Hero calls $0.08, 3 folds, BU calls $0.08, 2 folds, BB folds.

      Flop: ($0.27) 4, T, A (3 players)
      UTG2 checks, Hero checks, BU bets $0.20, UTG2 calls $0.20, Hero calls $0.20.

      Turn: ($0.87) Q (3 players)
      UTG2 checks, Hero checks, BU bets $0.60, UTG2 calls $0.60, Hero calls $0.60.

      River: ($2.67) Q (3 players)
      UTG2 checks, Hero checks, BU bets $1.41, UTG2 folds, Hero calls $1.41.

      Final Pot: $5.49.

      Results follow:

      Hero shows two pairs, aces and queens(Kc Ac).
      BU shows a full-house, queens full of aces(Ad Qh).

      BU wins with a full-house, queens full of aces(Ad Qh).



      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.01/$0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)

      Known players:
      SB:
      $2.99
      BB (Hero):
      $2.31
      UTG2:
      $2.04
      MP1:
      $2.00
      MP2:
      $1.66
      MP3:
      $1.33
      CO:
      $1.40
      BU:
      $2.37


      Preflop: Hero is BB with A, K.
      CO posts deadblind, UTG2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.08, 3 folds, BU calls $0.08, SB calls $0.07, Hero calls $0.06.

      Flop: ($0.34) 9, Q, A (4 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $0.24, MP1 folds, BU folds, SB raises to $0.56, Hero calls $0.32.

      Turn: ($1.46) 8 (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero checks.

      River: ($1.46) 6 (2 players)
      SB bets $1.37, Hero calls $1.37.

      Final Pot: $4.2.

      Results follow:

      Hero shows a pair of aces(As Kc).
      SB shows two pairs, aces and queens(Qc Ad).

      SB wins with two pairs, aces and queens(Qc Ad).

      On the river, when I review these hands, I know the correct move is to fold. I've known this for ages but every time I get into a situation like this I only think that he could have worse than me here. "He doesn't have to have AQ here to bet like he did! And I already have so much in the pot!" So I call, and I'm shockingly wrong.

      This is one of my major leaks, if I could fold in these spots in the long run I would be making pretty decent BB/100. I know this is something that all knew poker players have to learn at some point or else they will never become winning players. So I'm just wondering how it is you winning players were able to start doing this. Was there some "trick" you employed to start folding in these spots. Is there some way to identify before you make that call that you are tricking yourself into believing you are ahead? Or am I just destined to be a donk fish forever?

      Thanks in advance!
  • 13 replies
    • supeyrio
      supeyrio
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,106
      raise on the flop for hand 1 and get it in? you have pair plus nut flush gut shot.
    • ExMagnusxL
      ExMagnusxL
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.04.2010 Posts: 58
      That's definitely a good line to take but I felt in this situation I could get the most value by slow playing because I had the only draw on the board, definitely if I was more scared of a draw completing against me I would have gone that way.
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640
      look, a diamond is giving you advice and is totally right.

      slowplaying will almost in 99% of the case make you lose money or backfire. (Except the absolute nuts, i.e flopping quads)

      You need to bet and get it in hand 1
    • supeyrio
      supeyrio
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2009 Posts: 3,106
      like steve said, slowplaying a monster is fine. but your hand is not a monster, it's just a hand with alot of equity on the flop. to realise this equity you need to get as much $ in as possible on the flop. try not to slow play your strong hands for now since you are not too certain when is the better times to slow play, which then will cause you to lose value or get sucked out.
    • TiciBoy
      TiciBoy
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.01.2010 Posts: 1,235
      In first hand...why you jst call the raise with AKs? If you raised, there will be more money in the pot on the flop and it would be easyer to get the money in. And I agree...don't slowplay hands like TPTK, too often someone will catch his two pair or better.
    • morris979
      morris979
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2009 Posts: 98
      In the second hand, again raise pre.You could have raised it up to at least $0.40 maybe a little more. There's so much dead money in the pot, just pick it up.
      The SB might have still called but getting it in on that flop in a 3bet pot would be fine.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      bet flop 1.
    • livelydolphin
      livelydolphin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.04.2010 Posts: 30
      I don't think it's a major leak. As played in both hands I think the call on the river is ok. Sometimes opponents will show a weaker hand and you just have to win more than 30% of the time to make the call profitable. Unless you know that villian is a rock nit, you don't neccessary have to fold the river. Therefore I think the pot control line is fine.
    • ExMagnusxL
      ExMagnusxL
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.04.2010 Posts: 58
      Hey guys thanks for the off topic replies!

      I completely understand what you are saying about hand one, I don't do this very often, I have just been experimenting with ways to get more value from my made hands because I tend to only win small pots with them most of the time and lose big pots with them the rest, like here. If I raise the pot on the flop all bluffs (probably none) and weak hands will fold and most weaker made hands will call but not raise, trips would raise but I would stack off on them. Therefore I felt that if they were going to hit on the turn it would happen regardless of whether I raised or not. As well with that much money in the pot on turn if I had raised and I or the villain bet on the turn our stacks would ship and they would suckout on river if they were going to. Therefore I feel if they were going to suckout here it was going to happen regardless of what line I took. I'm not scared of the bluffs catching if I don't raise because they'll mostly have to catch runner runner to win while dodging my outs. Most of the time they won't though and I will still be able to pick up nearly the whole stack of the weaker made hands and the bluffs will fold on the river. This is my opinion and I would appreciate someone pointing out any errors in the logic.

      Steve and Supeyrio I completely respect what being a diamond member means and greatly appreciate one responding to my post. I didn't mean to offend with my reply, appear unappreciative or flippant.

      Now I was hoping we could get back on topic, how do you convince yourself to fold in these pots (as played) when you are probably behind? Is it correct to fold here? As Livelydolphin pointed out it may be a good play to call here, actually. But at the same time in a theoretical situation where you have a pot sized bet or little more behind on river, a good though not great hand like TPTK and you were nearly positive you were ahead on the flop but have faced aggression most of the way with scary turn and/or river cards coming how do you make yourself fold? Or perhaps some guy calls you all the way down and then donks huge on river, or maybe a four flush comes on the river for a guy who probably only had a pair before but couldn't let it go cause he had a weak draw also. I just can't seem to fold in these spots when I should and I would really appreciate any helpful advice.

      Thanks again!
    • ExMagnusxL
      ExMagnusxL
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.04.2010 Posts: 58
      Another example:

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.01/$0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Known players:
      UTG1:
      $1.26
      UTG2:
      $3.29
      MP1:
      $2.00
      MP2:
      $2.26
      MP3:
      $3.26
      CO:
      $2.00
      BU (Hero):
      $2.60
      SB:
      $1.72
      BB:
      $1.89


      Preflop: Hero is BU with Q, Q.
      6 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, SB calls $0.07, BB folds.

      Flop: ($0.18) J, 8, 6 (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $0.12, SB calls $0.12.

      Turn: ($0.42) 4 (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $0.30, SB calls $0.30.

      River: ($1.02) K (2 players)
      SB bets $0.62, Hero calls $0.62.

      Final Pot: $2.26.

      Results follow:

      Hero shows a pair of queens(Qc Qs).
      SB shows two pairs, kings and jacks(Js Ks).

      SB wins with two pairs, kings and jacks(Js Ks).

      I'm ahead all the way to the river and then bam over card plus donk bet, pretty easy fold but I didn't make it... I sat there just mulling over how I had been ahead the whole way until that card arrived and there was definitely no way I was anymore. But then I just went to hell with it and called anyway because I couldn't let it go.

      I'm not asking for a quick fix here I'm not asking for a magic sentence that will turn me around and make me the greatest player ever the history of the internet. I'm just looking for honest some advice, I know I'm not the only one who has had this problem I would really appreciate it if someone could share how they overcame it, I thought thats what this community was about sharing knowledge and wisdom...
    • ExMagnusxL
      ExMagnusxL
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.04.2010 Posts: 58
      Hope you don't hate me for bumping this *bump
    • ExMagnusxL
      ExMagnusxL
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.04.2010 Posts: 58
      Hey, looks like I did it one time without any advice or wisdom. Guess thats what you guys were trying to say with your silence. Figure it out on your own donk!


      Full Tilt Poker $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players - View hand 1172413
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      UTG: $1.20
      UTG+1: $2.40
      Hero (MP1): $2.00
      MP2: $1.66
      CO: $2.61
      BTN: $1.86
      SB: $2.12
      BB: $1.73

      Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP1 with K :heart: A :heart:
      2 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, MP2 calls $0.08, 4 folds

      Flop: ($0.19) Q :spade: J :club: A :spade: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.12, MP2 calls $0.12

      Turn: ($0.43) 6 :club: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.30, MP2 calls $0.30

      River: ($1.03) K :spade: (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.55, Hero folds
    • stevegold87
      stevegold87
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2009 Posts: 2,640