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Raise sizing mid to late stages

    • CreamyGoodness
      Joined: 18.10.2010 Posts: 229
      Ive seen a few posts around that suggest raising only 2.5bb in the mid/late stages of a tourney.

      I disagree with this, but Im so green I blend into the felt.

      As I understand it, we raise for 3 main reasons:
      1: To get more money into the pot with what is probably the best hand.
      2: To discourage drawing hands from entering the pot.
      3: To force the big blind to make a mistake (ideally calling with a worse hand).

      However, with antes in play in the mid to late stages, the pot is larger than normal. Therefore it offers better odds for players to enter the pot (This is the purpose of antes, to induce more action and speed up play). For this reason, I think the 2.5bb raise is insufficient for protecting a big hand, as it only neglects reasons 2 and 3, and only barely covers reason 1. Consider this:

      Mid stages of small stakes tourney. Blinds 150/300, antes 25. Starting pot 675.
      9 Players.

      4 folds, Hero raises to 750(2.5bb). CO, BU, SB fold. BB has A8s.

      Pot is 1325, cost BB 450 more, or just about 3:1. The BBs hand has about 30% value in a showdown right? And thats without implied odds. Is he making a mistake in calling? Even OOP?

      By the way, I prefer raising a minimum of 3bb, and usually go to 3.5-4bb.

      Id love to hear your arguments and reasons for raising 2.5bb!
  • 3 replies
    • fusionpk
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,692
      go ahead raise 4bb and start to commit your stack with less than par hands from LP. jesus. think about how wide you SHOULD be opening from LP then realise that u don't care that ur giving great odds, players shud not be flatting in the blinds OOP etc its dumb, they should and good players will more likely be reraising you. so all u do by raising 4bb is make ur steals less +EV, lose more when u get restealed on and end up committing urself in spots where its rly marginal. you also leave urself no playability postflop because u lessen the stack to pot ratio. ppl should not be coming along with there drawing hands anyway since they don't get v good implied odds and there is no room for play postflop.

      here: u raise 4bb from BU with 40-50% opening range, bb is good reg and realises u are light, he 3b's u pretty often and pretty wide, u lose 4bb and cant continue, u are likely going to be folding a sick amt of this range. now consider u open 2bb/2.5bb, now when he 3bs u, u lose 2/2.5bb, which in the long run becomes considerably less, it also makes ur steal price much better. it gives you room to also throw out a cbet post flop without committing the majority of your stack. if he decides to flat call because he gets 'odds' then this is good for u, he rarely hits, he is OOP and we have more playability with our stack size, he just sets us up a +EV cbet. we will also adapt to his dumb tendancy to flatcall us and raise tighter on bu.
    • chongkee
      Joined: 16.02.2011 Posts: 2
      i prefer doing 2.5bb raise when the blinds are 500 - 1k. main purpose is to steal. if they 3 bet i give up most of the time.
    • amplifyd
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 1,769
      With like 20bb I also prefer to just like minraise. Depends on BI tho - in lower Bi I would just 2.25-2.5x it because they call too much.