[NL2-NL10] NL10 KhTh Small blind completion

    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      Not entirely sure about my competion OOp with KhTh. Seems pretty weak. Anyway, as played, I'm trying to keep the pot small on the flop. I lead the turn, and he is very aggro so I'm not overly surprised to see a raise here. I think he's raising Jc here maybe even Qc/Ac thinking I can fold some king of Jack. I check to induce bluff from a missed club or value from Jx.

      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      Hero:
      $10.6
      CO:
      $3.22

      0.05/0.1 No-Limit Hold'em (7 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Elephant 0.90 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with K:heart: , T:heart:
      3 folds, CO calls $0.10, BU folds, Hero calls $0.05, BB checks.

      Flop: ($0.30) K:club: , 6:club: , 4:club: (3 players)
      Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks.

      Turn: ($0.30) J:heart: (3 players)
      Hero bets $0.3, BB folds, CO raises to $0.60, Hero calls $0.30.

      River: ($1.50) 3:spade: (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO bets $0.7, Hero calls $0.70.

      Final Pot: $2.90

      Results follow (highlight to see):
      CO shows a flush, ace high (Ac 2c)
      Hero shows (Kh Th)

      CO wins with a flush, ace high (Ac 2c)
  • 13 replies
    • funktor
      funktor
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.08.2008 Posts: 922
      Hi Meemawuk!

      Preflop:
      KTs is hand that plays nicely multiway and has great implied odds. You have to completed only 1/2bb, so this is definetly ok (you can complete SB with 1 limper as well wity any SC, or Suited 1-gapper).

      Flop: I would check-call, and check-folding later streets to continueing aggression.

      As played:

      I do not want to see 4th , in which case I would be check-folding later streets.

      Turn bet is fine to get fold smaller FDs. Due to his low number hands, his AF does not have to have really anything common to reality (have you seen some odd moves in past?). I would consider folding here directly, as he is raising POT size bet. Do you really expect him to do that with bare A? To anything else we are not in a good shape. Even to hand like JxQ we are flipping and on river you never know if you are good.

      River is close, as we can have flopped flush ourselves (limped pot). I am more open to fold here than call without history. We still only have TP with medium kicker on 3 flush board.

      Don't you expect him bet A:cx hand on flop directly due to his high AF and because he is short?

      Regards

      Funktor

      P.S.: You have position on villain, you will find better spots for bluff catching
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      Flop: I would check-call, and check-folding later streets to continueing aggression.


      Why not bet the flop? When we call we don't get any information about our hand strength. And we want to protect against draws. If continues to be aggresive later, we can fold anyway. But at least we can take pot down on flop if we are ahead.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c
      Flop: I would check-call, and check-folding later streets to continueing aggression.


      Why not bet the flop? When we call we don't get any information about our hand strength. And we want to protect against draws. If continues to be aggresive later, we can fold anyway. But at least we can take pot down on flop if we are ahead.
      Yep, that's also what I wanted to mention out. Against so loose opponent I'd just bet myself and when he raises we just fold the hand even if he has such an AF. Although this could also be a reason why he didn't want to CBet the flop, although I wouldn't take the AF that big since we don't have much sample size anyways.
    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      Originally posted by funktor

      Don't you expect him bet A:cx hand on flop directly due to his high AF and because he is short?

      I see what you mean here. My logic is pretty bad. If he's bluff raising the turn with just a club, he's always betting the flop IP vs 2 checks with a big club.

      However, you said that that if he has something like JQ with a club I'm flipping? How is that calculated? 9 flush outs and 5 pair outs = 14 outs with 1 card to come so ~28%? I'm definitely getting a decent price, particularly if I think he'll bluff the river with a missed club if he's raising the turn with Non-top-Pair+club hand like you mentioned.

      I don't particularly like my line in this hand either hence why I posted it but surely if I call the turn raise, I have to check-call that sort of river card? I think he can often show up with worse.


      Regarding betting the flop, I presume if he flats me I also have to bet the turn? Playing bet-fold on both streets? I really hate giving him the option of bluff raising me on the flop, plus if he flats, he can have a hand like KQ/KJ that is already crushing me. He can also have a club to go with his top pair. If he flats behind on the flop and the turn, I just play check-fold on the river? or Check-call? At least by checking the flop and him checking behind, I can be relatively confident that he doesnt have a K, and certinly not a King AND a club. So i'm worried about a flopped flush, J6/J4?

      Interesting hand! :-D
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      Regarding betting the flop, I presume if he flats me I also have to bet the turn? Playing bet-fold on both streets? I really hate giving him the option of bluff raising me on the flop, plus if he flats, he can have a hand like KQ/KJ that is already crushing me. He can also have a club to go with his top pair. If he flats behind on the flop and the turn, I just play check-fold on the river? or Check-call? At least by checking the flop and him checking behind, I can be relatively confident that he doesnt have a K, and certinly not a King AND a club. So i'm worried about a flopped flush, J6/J4?


      Yeah, I would play bet/fold flop. Don't know about the turn, but probably also bet/fold if the 4th club does not appear. I think he is not blufraising you very often.

      If he flats he can have hands like KQ, KJ, but also he can have a draw, or maybe some pocket pair like 88. He can also have weaker Kx.

      On ther river check/fold I guess, because if we bet flop and turn the pot beomes big, and we don't want a big pot on wih only two pair medium kicker in unraised pot. And he should also check behind his weak hands unless yo have reads that he is bluffing the river.

      My 2 cents :)
    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      If I bet the flop, then check the turn, he will always bet a King (including both better and worse), a Jack with a club, and maybe even a lone club (A/Q) since the bet/check line looks so weak.

      I think my line actually gives me more information about his potential hand and I think I find the top of his range here. Unless he's only ever making this kind of play with the absolute nuts, and not to protect a made hand or as a semibluff.

      My plan is initially to check-call the flop, then check-fold to a turn continuation.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,071
      you can click the link advice jugge to look again at the thread if you want him to take a look. I just clicked it accidentaly when I wanted to copy link text :)
    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      Nice one!. I clicked it but it doesnt look like anything has happened?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Meemawuk
      Nice one!. I clicked it but it doesnt look like anything has happened?
      Since the evaluation still is the same. :D And there wasn't really a specific question what we could answer.
    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      There were a few questions in this post


      Originally posted by Meemawuk

      However, you said that that if he has something like JQ with a club I'm flipping? How is that calculated? 9 flush outs and 5 pair outs = 14 outs with 1 card to come so ~28%? I'm definitely getting a decent price, particularly if I think he'll bluff the river with a missed club if he's raising the turn with Non-top-Pair+club hand like you mentioned...

      Regarding betting the flop, I presume if he flats me I also have to bet the turn? Playing bet-fold on both streets? I really hate giving him the option of bluff raising me on the flop, plus if he flats, he can have a hand like KQ/KJ that is already crushing me. He can also have a club to go with his top pair. If he flats behind on the flop and the turn, I just play check-fold on the river? or Check-call? At least by checking the flop and him checking behind, I can be relatively confident that he doesnt have a K, and certinly not a King AND a club. So i'm worried about a flopped flush, J6/J4?

      Interesting hand! :-D
      Also about betting the flop, then checking the turn. He will bet the turn with better and worse Kings, along with J + club hands, and sometimes even a lone club thinking I might fold some weak made hands but, also giving him the option of repping a stronger hand than just a missed flush draw on the river, and I'm still beating a lot of hands in his expected range here?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      However, you said that that if he has something like JQ with a club I'm flipping? How is that calculated? 9 flush outs and 5 pair outs = 14 outs with 1 card to come so ~28%?

      For example he has one mid-pair and A of :
      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 51,616% 51,616% 0,000% 48,384% Ac7h
      Player 2: 48,384% 48,384% 0,000% 51,616% KhTh

      You see, he is even ahead. :) Just next time try playing around with equilator.

      Regarding betting the flop, I presume if he flats me I also have to bet the turn? Playing bet-fold on both streets?

      And I actually mentioned that already in my post and when he raises us then we just give it up. Our hand ain't that strong. And he may already have as hardly beat.

      I really hate giving him the option of bluff raising me on the flop, plus if he flats, he can have a hand like KQ/KJ that is already crushing me.

      And why do you think that he would bluff-raise you? And even if he does then I don't mind at all. More I'd say that you having too much spots where it's hard time to fold you even TP and where you losing a lot money, you could check for example in your tracker 1pair/2pair type of hands, I am pretty sure you loose with them.

      He can also have a club to go with his top pair. If he flats behind on the flop and the turn, I just play check-fold on the river? or Check-call?

      Yes, I'd likely just Check/Fold it unless I have a good reason to think that he is capable of bluffing and of course depends on the bet sizing and etc.

      At least by checking the flop and him checking behind, I can be relatively confident that he doesnt have a K, and certinly not a King AND a club. So i'm worried about a flopped flush, J6/J4?

      And that's exactly what happens, you going to Call such raises on turn and also bet on river. :) Since you don't know where you stand and are thinking that you are ahead but actually you aren't.

      Also about betting the flop, then checking the turn. He will bet the turn with better and worse Kings, along with J + club hands, and sometimes even a lone club thinking I might fold some weak made hands but, also giving him the option of repping a stronger hand than just a missed flush draw on the river, and I'm still beating a lot of hands in his expected range here?

      Why do you think that he will bet every time with his worse Kx and want to go broke? And for that we can easily try 2nd barreling and if he raises there, we have an easily fold. :) And also when he does have there Kx along with J+ type of hands, those hands already beat us.

      And while we don't have the reads or stats for that kind of information that he is capable of raising with pure draws, I don't like Calling there. And of course you are overplaying your TP in multiway pot, that wasn't our plan preflop. Rather just fold those hands preflop if you aren't capable of laying down TP type of hands.

      Hopefully it helped now. :f_biggrin:
    • Meemawuk
      Meemawuk
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2009 Posts: 758
      I didnt realise he meant he could have a pair +FD on the flop. I would have thought most people would bet that sort of hand on the flop IP, and if they don't they'll rarely raise the turn.

      I'm still not sure if you mean I'm supposed to bet the flop, and if he calls bet the turn? Or should I bet the flop, and if he calls check the turn? At least if I check the turn he will often check behind with just a draw. But then if he does have a club draw, I'm not protecting my hand.

      I very seldom show-down 1 pair hands, it's one of the first things I learned when I started playing the micros. Especially not in big pots. This is a rare situation where I thought because of board texture and aggression factor (admittedly over a small sample size) could mean that he could show up with some sort of semibluff on the turn.

      I don't know what you mean when you say I don't know where I stand. I explain what I think his range is; Flopped flush, J6, J4, Jx, J + club.

      I don't actually dislike my line of thinking, but I agree vs the uknown I should be able to get away from it. There's definitely an element of overthinking in this hand vs micros... lol
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      At least if I check the turn he will often check behind with just a draw. But then if he does have a club draw, I'm not protecting my hand.

      Nope, we rather keep the pot small and even when there comes another on river, he wont likely bluff there anyways there unless he is some kind of aggressor and I even don't mind folding there when he does bet big when 4th comes.