Stupid regulars

    • Bliausmas
      Bliausmas
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 741
      Lets start with a hand example:

      Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      SB ($10.86)
      BB ($8.71)
      Hero (UTG) ($18.69)
      MP ($13.83)
      CO ($10.39)
      Button ($5.63)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, A
      Hero bets $0.20, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.30, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.05, CO calls $0.75

      Flop: ($2.25) Q, K, 7 (2 players)
      Hero bets $2.25, CO calls $2.25

      Turn: ($6.75) 10 (2 players)
      Hero bets $6.75, CO raises to $7.09 (All-In), Hero calls $0.34

      River: ($20.93) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

      Total pot: $20.93 | Rake: $1.39

      * I open minraised because of misclick. Yeah I know this looks like lame excuse, but that's true :)

      Well it looks like a standart beat by some idiot who doesn't know (or doesn't give a fuck) about pot odds and similar stuff. But the thing is that my opponent in this hand was a fucking 14/8 rock. Flat call 4bet and call pot size cbet with a gutterball - are you fucking kidding me?

      I play NL10 Rush, and I often get beat by idiots, but I accept that and take it as a part of the game. Sometimes regulars just outplay me - hats off to them then. But most of the time they take my stack they are playing terribly. They keep getting awarded for their mistakes. Like calling my 4bet shove with AQ and hitting their 3-outer. Or calling 2 barells with low pocket pair and rivering a set over my 2pair/overpair. Or calling 3bet/4bet out of position with Q9s and flopping something better than a pair of Kings. And so on, well you get the point. I mean I could understand that type of play from a 62/37 idiots, but when TAG like regulars with 17/15 stats over hundreds of hands plays that terrible - it just leaves me fucking confused. Go to hell you fucking moron regulars!

      I guess this topic won't be very useful for someone but I just needed to rant a bit...
  • 46 replies
    • alejandrosh
      alejandrosh
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2008 Posts: 4,346
      you are right, I also hate to be playing against bad regulars. that's why I table select and pick to be on toughest table possible so people don't get rewarded for their bad plays.
    • alexgrapid
      alexgrapid
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.12.2008 Posts: 242
      I understand your frustration , but why are you complaining they are like an ATM present all time at many tables so +EV :)
    • Ave27
      Ave27
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.01.2007 Posts: 171
      Originally posted by Bliausmas
      Lets start with a hand example:

      Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      SB ($10.86)
      BB ($8.71)
      Hero (UTG) ($18.69)
      MP ($13.83)
      CO ($10.39)
      Button ($5.63)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, A
      Hero bets $0.20, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.30, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.05, CO calls $0.75

      Flop: ($2.25) Q, K, 7 (2 players)
      Hero bets $2.25, CO calls $2.25

      Turn: ($6.75) 10 (2 players)
      Hero bets $6.75, CO raises to $7.09 (All-In), Hero calls $0.34

      River: ($20.93) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

      Total pot: $20.93 | Rake: $1.39

      * I open minraised because of misclick. Yeah I know this looks like lame excuse, but that's true :)

      Well it looks like a standart beat by some idiot who doesn't know (or doesn't give a fuck) about pot odds and similar stuff. But the thing is that my opponent in this hand was a fucking 14/8 rock. Flat call 4bet and call pot size cbet with a gutterball - are you fucking kidding me?

      I play NL10 Rush, and I often get beat by idiots, but I accept that and take it as a part of the game. Sometimes regulars just outplay me - hats off to them then. But most of the time they take my stack they are playing terribly. They keep getting awarded for their mistakes. Like calling my 4bet shove with AQ and hitting their 3-outer. Or calling 2 barells with low pocket pair and rivering a set over my 2pair/overpair. Or calling 3bet/4bet out of position with Q9s and flopping something better than a pair of Kings. And so on, well you get the point. I mean I could understand that type of play from a 62/37 idiots, but when TAG like regulars with 17/15 stats over hundreds of hands plays that terrible - it just leaves me fucking confused. Go to hell you fucking moron regulars!

      I guess this topic won't be very useful for someone but I just needed to rant a bit...
      yeah thats a pretty sick beat, but look at it the other way. if he didn't hit his slim outter you prob woulda laughed and called him a donk well u counted his chips.
    • Bliausmas
      Bliausmas
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 741
      Forgot to mention the outcome of the hand :D The opponent had AJo there.

      Yeah I get your point guys, and of course I know that principle myself, just need to let out some steam while this "idiot rewarding period" continues.. Every session I face a ton of situations like "no way this TAG just hit his gutterb.. oh fuck, another set into the muck..". I don't know, now I even think the best way to deal with this would be to not even use the HUD and play everyone as a donk...
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Like you are getting called by worse very often here
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by Bliausmas
      Forgot to mention the outcome of the hand :D The opponent had AJo there.

      Yeah I get your point guys, and of course I know that principle myself, just need to let out some steam while this "idiot rewarding period" continues.. Every session I face a ton of situations like "no way this TAG just hit his gutterb.. oh fuck, another set into the muck..". I don't know, now I even think the best way to deal with this would be to not even use the HUD and play everyone as a donk...
      Well you can't really call anyone playing NL10 a good reg so if you play them all as a bunch of donkeys you really can't go wrong with that.
    • jass1960
      jass1960
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2010 Posts: 709
      Originally posted by Bliausmas
      Forgot to mention the outcome of the hand :D The opponent had AJo there.

      ...
      You forgot the old adage - "play the man, not your cards!!!"

      So you open with a min-raise......

      Our hero is in the CO with AJo and looks at his HUD and his notes and thinks - "it's that fish, again! - prob got low pair, suited connectors, Ax (low x)". Hero fancies his hand and min-raises.

      You 4 bet.

      Our Hero thinks "min-raise, 4-bet - the classic AA/KK move or air - with this donk usually air" - so flat calls.

      KQ7 rainbow flop

      You bet the pot - our hero thinks - "I know he is an idiot.... but even Bliausmas, wouldn't try and scare me out out of the hand if he had AA, KK, 77 - must have air or low pair - let's be generous and put him on low pair - with 6 outs for a higher pair and 4 outs for the broadway straight - I reckon it's worth a flat call, as he probably has air anyway."

      T on the river.....

      And you bet the pot again....

      Our Hero goes all-in and laughs his head off when he sees your rockets - Our Hero thinks..."Make a note - even more of a stupid donk than I originally thought!"

      You rave about pot-odds and stupidity, but your betting pattern was awful and basically you were outplayed.... :D
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      ^^^ Villain ITT
    • Bliausmas
      Bliausmas
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 741
      I don't know if you're being sarcastic here, but OK, lets re-evaluate the things.

      Originally posted by jass1960
      So you open with a min-raise......

      Our hero is in the CO with AJo and looks at his HUD and his notes and thinks - "it's that fish, again! - prob got low pair, suited connectors, Ax (low x)". Hero fancies his hand and min-raises.
      Do you know what notes he has about me, and if he even uses HUD? Me neither, so you argument, sir, is rendered invalid. Another thing is that if our villain is so smart and is capable of using notes and applying hand ranges, he is never gonna put me on that range, because I never ever minraise in any situation.
      Min3bet is "fancy play" for you? Well for me it's bullshiting when you have no idea how to play your hand. Of course it's obvious why this play is so bad, but lets take a closer look - do you minraise for value or bluffing? If you're bluffing then you're an idiot, because I get correct pot odds to call with any2. If you're raising for value - it's a fail again, because any2 is gonna call and you just make the pot bigger with marginal hand without getting basically any info.

      You 4 bet. Our Hero thinks "min-raise, 4-bet - the classic AA/KK move or air - with this donk usually air" - so flat calls.

      Yeah I agree I produced classic donk line with KK+ (minraise/normal raise), but putting your opponent on air in this spot would be total fail, because if you're so observant, you would notice that "this donk" 4bet bluffs extremely rare.

      KQ7 rainbow flop You bet the pot - our hero thinks - "I know he is an idiot.... but even Bliausmas, wouldn't try and scare me out out of the hand if he had AA, KK, 77 - must have air or low pair - let's be generous and put him on low pair - with 6 outs for a higher pair and 4 outs for the broadway straight - I reckon it's worth a flat call, as he probably has air anyway."

      I'm not scaring him out of the hand, I'm valuebetting. I know I'm gonna get called by AK, AQ, JJ, maybe even lower pairs. If he has something and is an idiot, he is gonna pay me no matter how much I bet.
      And this "lets put him on smth that I beat, no matter what he has" thinking makes me want to cancel writing this post one more time, but I need to be strong and finish :s_biggrin:

      T on the river.....

      And you bet the pot again....

      Our Hero goes all-in and laughs his head off when he sees your rockets - Our Hero thinks..."Make a note - even more of a stupid donk than I originally thought!"

      You rave about pot-odds and stupidity, but your betting pattern was awful and basically you were outplayed.... :D
      So please suggest better betting pattern. I think it was totally fine. When I bet pot on the turn I knew I'm not gonna fold this anyway and whatever he has is dangerous to me, so I wanted to charge any draws that he very well might have, but oh look, we have some idiot just hit his gutterball, and another one defending him...
    • NeilSimpson
      NeilSimpson
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2010 Posts: 123
      playing against a TAG regular you should be checking that turn.....hands you beat will check behind and hands that crush you e.g KK or QQ (which are his most likely holdings in this spot if hes tight) will take your whole stack. any hand like AK or AQ qwill check behind for pot control. your complaining about him sucking out on you, but you played it badly, you comited your entire stack with 1 pair on a board thats all over his set range and possibly even 2 pair range. bottom line, you got your whole stack in with 1 pair.....and if your doing that all the time your not going to be a winning player....unless your playing against people who have no idea about poker. check fold the turn.....possibly check call to a small bet.
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Hahaownedlolz
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      So calling potsize flop bet with second pair or even worse is standard to you? that doesn't make any sense to me. Because let's be honest, what hands are you potting the flop with? probably nothing worse then AK. So i'd really call with very few hands that's you'd actualy beat here on the flop. perhaps only AK which is very unlikely due to what your holding. On microstakes most people betting big usualy do it for value and not bluffing from what i've noticed.

      Obviously the person who does it matters alot. but imo potting flop is bad.. the board isn't really drawheavy.
    • andiperusko
      andiperusko
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.11.2010 Posts: 58
      +1
    • Bliausmas
      Bliausmas
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 741
      Well yes, the flop is pretty dry, I could bet a little less here. Same goes with the turn. Thank you for being so kind and evaluating the hand, but what is your point, guys? Are you saying that I played the hand a lot worse than my opponent? Is it worse to overbet than chase a 4-outer while calling 4bets and pot size continuation bets, especially in microlimits? Well if yes, I guess I should retire...
    • AlCaTrAzzALZ
      AlCaTrAzzALZ
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.05.2008 Posts: 726
      Originally posted by NeilSimpson
      playing against a TAG regular you should be checking that turn.....hands you beat will check behind and hands that crush you e.g KK or QQ (which are his most likely holdings in this spot if hes tight) will take your whole stack.
      +1
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Hahaownedlolz
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      Originally posted by Bliausmas
      Well yes, the flop is pretty dry, I could bet a little less here. Same goes with the turn. Thank you for being so kind and evaluating the hand, but what is your point, guys? Are you saying that I played the hand a lot worse than my opponent? Is it worse to overbet than chase a 4-outer while calling 4bets and pot size continuation bets, especially in microlimits? Well if yes, I guess I should retire...

      nah.. i think his play is terrible. Hitting either his A or J completes alot of draws + someone could have a hand like KQ, KJ etc. so those aren't safe outs here. The only card i'd really have wanted to see on the turn if i was him was the 10. Plus there's really no point in calling flop bet here unless he put you on a bluff and was reraising you on the turn regardless of the cards. but it's not such a good board to do that on and facing a potsize bet on the flop i wouldn't put bluffs or draws in someone's range that easily.

      Plus most players don't have the balls to float with air anyway. So it's clear he's a fish with no clue about pot odds or was "feeling lucky".

      just my two cents :D
    • Alficor1
      Alficor1
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.06.2010 Posts: 7,291
      Originally posted by Bliausmas
      Lets start with a hand example:

      Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      SB ($10.86)
      BB ($8.71)
      Hero (UTG) ($18.69)
      MP ($13.83)
      CO ($10.39)
      Button ($5.63)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, A
      Hero bets $0.20, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.30, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.05, CO calls $0.75

      Flop: ($2.25) Q, K, 7 (2 players)
      Hero bets $2.25, CO calls $2.25

      Turn: ($6.75) 10 (2 players)
      Hero bets $6.75, CO raises to $7.09 (All-In), Hero calls $0.34

      River: ($20.93) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

      Total pot: $20.93 | Rake: $1.39
      Fold on the river, there's four to a straight and you dont beat anything he'd shove on the turn for value.
    • Bliausmas
      Bliausmas
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 741
      Originally posted by Hahaownedlolz
      Plus most players don't have the balls to float with air anyway. So it's clear he's a fish with no clue about pot odds or was "feeling lucky".
      I don't think floating may be +EV in NL10. You need to be straightforward. But sometimes I see players "floating" like in this hand, they choose terrible spots to float. Like calling 4bet and convincing themselves that "he has AK that didn't hit.. Oh wait, there's K on the flop, nah he doesn't have AK, he has AQ now" :f_confused: And you know, when I actually have AK with nut flush draw that misses on the river and I am left with nothing then, and when both me and floating idiot decide to give up on the river, check-check, and I see his rivered pair of deuces with a hand like T2o against my "nut nothing" - it drives me nuts.

      Well anyway, I've been thinking about my game very carefully these days and I think I found out my biggest problem because of which I was burning money. I was running OK-ish for like 125k hands, had NL10 almost beat, then fell into huge downswing (-52BI) for like 50k hands and now I'm trying to come back from this shit, but unsuccessfully. I'm gonna apply some simple, but crucial changes to my game and try it for like another 50k hands. If I don't come back after this - well, fuck it...
    • Bliausmas
      Bliausmas
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 741
      Originally posted by Alficor1
      Originally posted by Bliausmas
      Lets start with a hand example:

      Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

      SB ($10.86)
      BB ($8.71)
      Hero (UTG) ($18.69)
      MP ($13.83)
      CO ($10.39)
      Button ($5.63)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, A
      Hero bets $0.20, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.30, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.05, CO calls $0.75

      Flop: ($2.25) Q, K, 7 (2 players)
      Hero bets $2.25, CO calls $2.25

      Turn: ($6.75) 10 (2 players)
      Hero bets $6.75, CO raises to $7.09 (All-In), Hero calls $0.34

      River: ($20.93) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

      Total pot: $20.93 | Rake: $1.39
      Fold on the river, there's four to a straight and you dont beat anything he'd shove on the turn for value.
      Oh boy, how do you call that maneuver, "zombie fold"?
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Hahaownedlolz
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      I agree exept that i doubt that he was really floating. I do not believe he'd have reraised the turn if he hadn't hit it. Atleast the average nl10-25 player does not do that from my experience.


      Just focus on improving. Post hands in hand evaluation forum, analyse hands, watch vids etc etc. ;) goodluck at the tables.