The point of BSS

    • pflaume
      pflaume
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.10.2006 Posts: 61
      Hi there,

      today i read through the articles about BSS and how everything should work with it. For testing I seated myself at a 0,02/0,04$ table at PartyPoker and started playing according to the SHC and the other stuff mentioned in the articles.

      What I am missing though, is the whole winning-strategy behind BSS. The players who usually play BSS dont seem to be so bad to call an all-in/several minor bets every now and then with crap like they tend to so when they face a shortstack. Because the main opponents you are facing with BSS are exactly other BSS-players, who are more cautious/know what to do.

      What I experienced was that if I get to see the flop, the game already ends there. Either you have made a hand an bet something, which is answered by a lot of folds. Or you have nothing and fold yourself to a bet of one of your opponents. If everybody checks, you get to see the turn/river and when someone completes his hand now, it is the same as on the flop. They bet, the rest folds.

      Theoretically you can only make money with BSS by picking up blinds (which the other players will do as often as you do, as they have made hands on the flop as often as you do), facing other really strong hands with your own really really strong hand or by bluffing.

      Now neither of the three above mentioned cases seems steady and secure enough to me to make BSS a profitable strategy in the lower limits. Because all the players will sooner or later pick up the blinds with a nice hand, to which other players fold. The chance of meeting a great hand with your own even greater hand are marginal. And bluffing on the lower limits doesnt seem to pay off in the long run.

      So what am I missing?
  • 10 replies
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      I don't find the same experience as you are seeing. I play BSS on higher limits at Titan, but since I moved most of my money off Party, I have a very small bankroll left there, not even enough to play at NL5. But I have been playing NL5 there anyway, as the money isn't useful for anything else.

      It is only a very small sample so far, because I don't often play there, but after 1.5K hands, my winrate is 22.77BB/100 hands. I find my monsters often paid off by people who don't know how to fold. My preflop play is very passive, and a bit looser than recommended, with a Vpip of 14, but postflop, my AF flop and turn are around 3.

      I will keep you posted regarding how this proceeds, but knowing how unaware most players are even at higher levels, I am not surprised that I am having this experience at the lowest possible level. The only thing wrong with this is, it isn't possible to make reasonable money at this level, even with this winrate. Oh well.
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      I don't think other bs-players are cautious/know what to do. In my experience, most players are donkeys, until you reach higher levels, where you have to adjust your play a bit (I think). Bss-ing is mostly eating fish, as there are plenty on the levels NL50 and under.
    • Sreteb
      Sreteb
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2007 Posts: 1,587
      I've had the same experience as aciddrop. On the micros, they will pay to much for a draw and sometimes bluff if they miss. They also think top pair any kicker is the nuts.

      With BSS you'll play a TAG style, which means you'll play a lot of small pots aggressively and that will add up very quickly.

      I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for in a winning strategy. But compared to SSS, you'll play a lot more hands and you can get more value (because you can bet the turn and river). So, in theory, you should get more winnings.

      I had ~16bb/100h on party 5NL, in 6.5k hands. Still a small sample, but I do think a higher win rate is sustainable, just by playing ABC poker.
      I had ~2.5bb/100h with SSS in 18k hands on 10NL.

      I don't know your sample size, but I don't see anyone get more winnings with SSS than BSS.
    • Gungunhana
      Gungunhana
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.02.2007 Posts: 429
      I have about 70k hands on BSS NL20 and I agree with the other chaps.
      Plenty of fish willing to give you their money, specially late at night. :D
      Of course every now and than you meet a very tight table, or you get a bad beat from some crazy hand like 85o or something but that´s not the rule.
    • pflaume
      pflaume
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.10.2006 Posts: 61
      So in the widest sense, you make money by playing BSS through aggressive play on the flop (holding a draw and aiming for a monster) and bluffing?

      If not, where is the point, where you get ahead of the fishes? Concerning that everybody gets nearly the same hands in the end, all you can do is to outplay your opponent. But even a fish should know, how to play his premium hand. So the critical situation should be, when you and your opponent hold medium hands or draws.

      And at that point you have to play your medium hand/draw more aggressive as compared to SSS (where you just fold it right away) or bluff?

      Or is it, as aciddrop said, more about slow-playing preflop luring everybody into the pot and then going for the pot agressively at the flop/turn?

      Please enlighten me. Becauce its hard to play a strategy effective, when you dont see the point of it. But I want to play BSS, ass SSS becomes a bit boring and BSS seems to be the natural enhancement of it. :(
    • Sreteb
      Sreteb
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2007 Posts: 1,587
      "ABC means playing predictable, straightforward poker. Bet or raise with good hands, check or call with mediocre hands and draws, and fold bad hands. Do not bluff or semibluff, float, trap, squeeze, limp-reraise/back-raise, etc.

      ABC poker gives up too much information to be optimal. If you recognize that someone is playing ABC poker, you can pay off fewer value bets, and you can usually cheaply take away the pots they don't want and make thin value bets. However, against bad opponents who call too much, ABC poker will win."

      (copy/past from 2+2, props to pzhon)

      If you do that with BSS on the micros, you'll probably win. Just don't get tricky with people.

      You're right that even a fish should know... but they don't... and that's why we love 'm.

      I'm pretty sure this stuff is all in the articles as well. Perhaps you should restudy them?

      Ps: I don't think acid was talking about slowplaying. You should almost never do that on the micros.
    • xylere
      xylere
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      Well, I am not deep stack player (not at all :) ), but my opinion is:

      1) you can not outperform players that have no clue what they are doing themselves (70% of lower limits), therefore, straightforward "ABC" poker is obviously best solution. Besides, the rest 30% are likely beginners, who will still do a lot of mistakes...

      2) you don`t have to be the best player at the table (it is good if you are though). 1-2 live players are pretty much enough... On lower limits you will likely have way more)
    • mashmash
      mashmash
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.08.2007 Posts: 29
      What don't you understand about deep stack poker? It's all about consistently playing better than the other players. There are fish at every level and they will pay off. Hopefully you will also to graduate to a level where you consistently beat the good players. If you follow the bss here at pokerstrategy you will be a tag and if you play well you will win. The others are right, ABC wins at the low limits. When I sit down at a table, I'm looking to stack the bad players. This is the advantage over SSS. You will never be able to stack anyone playing SSS, obviously. Picking up the blinds and winning the small pots well is key but a lot of money is in the big turn and river bets. The most important thing for me is sitting at the right table in the right seat to put yourself in a profitable situation. You say you don't understand how you make money off the fish. You do this by playing better starting hands than them, allowing them to pay you off with your good hands, and not paying off with your not so good hands. Easy. Keep studying and practising and it will come to you
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      Originally posted by pflaume
      Or is it, as aciddrop said, more about slow-playing preflop luring everybody into the pot and then going for the pot agressively at the flop/turn?
      :(
      Sreteb was correct, I definitely make my raises with the right cards preflop, never limp with premium hands from any position, or better hands from late position where there are only limpers before me. Nothing changes there. When I have the advantage, I want more money in the pot to begin with.

      One thing I have in my favor here is the number of limpers before me in most pots. It makes suited connectors and small broadway hands very playable. It is possible to limp many more of these kind of hands at the micros, whereas you will be raised out of most pots at higher limits. It's because of this that I suggested passive preflop play, and my aggression comes out when I hit and when I need to protect post flop. This is what my PT stats show, anyhow.

      Another advantage is the size of stacks compared to blinds. Pocket pairs can be played for set value against almost any preflop raise. Particularly at Poker Stars, where I have just finished my first session of NL5, with blinds of .01 and .02. When you make a set here, you can stack someone for heaps. As it happens, in 510 hands, my vpip was 16, pfr 7, AF preflop .8, AF flop 3, AF overall 1.4, and my winrate for this session was 42BB/100 hands. Which is just over $8 for nearly two hours of work, so I'm not planning a holiday or retirement or anything. ;)

      EDIT: And the other thing, I got a free play on the BB sixty percent of the time. That is unbelievable, but true. Stars show that stat in the game window.
    • eclipse10
      eclipse10
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.11.2007 Posts: 6
      non shortstack is actual poker.

      while some people can play SSS quite profitably i cant satnd it. at low limits you can really max your profits- guys above posted winrates of 16BB/100 + which is awesome. the value of SC and hands which can make sneaky monsters goes way up wiht a big stack, and that is where you will make your money in low limit big stack play. its not really deep stack if its 100BB, but you at least have enough room to play sc/sgappers and small PP especially since the opponents are so passive and limp wayy too much.