icm question

    • evertonroar
      evertonroar
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 737
      ok so i have been playing the $6.50 stt at ft and returning around 5% plus rakeback. I believe (or beleived) that i am (was) pretty good at the push or fold stage and applying icm. but relised i hadnt really looked at it for awhile so decided to do some training and am going to do 100 hands on the icm trainer between each set of 6 sngs.

      The first set i did i got 88/100 and was very surprised at some of the ones i got wrong, so i though i would get an opinion from you guys.

      9 players left and i am utg+1. blind are 200 and i have 900. everyone at the table has less then 9bb left and the average is around 6-7BB. UTG raises all in and I have AQo. I chose to call but was wrong. ICM trainer says call AK-AQs+99+. But how wrong is my call really? in the next 3 hands i have to pay 1/3 of my stack in blinds leaving me with 3bb at most (if the blinds dont increase). Is this a case where I should ignore ICM (or at least accept a small negative edge as my stack is about to be descimated by the blinds)?

      thanks all
  • 6 replies
    • evertonroar
      evertonroar
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 737
      follow up question:

      - what edge would you recommend using in ICM trainer?
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      The ICM ignores your position on future hands, but do not overcompensate for this. Do not assume that because you have a short stack, and you will have to pay a blind at some point, that your stack is worthless so you should get your chips in badly in the hope of getting a respectable stack.

      When you post the big blind, this usually costs only a small fraction of the big blind. You might get a walk. You might get a good hand. You might get good enough odds to call. If you make it through the blinds, you get several free/cheap hands in late position before you would post the blinds again, and so the stack you have when you make it through the blinds is worth more than the face value.

      In case you push now, and survive, you still have to post a blind. You only save the cost of posting the big blind if you bust out.

      As for the specific hand, the Nash equilibrium range for the UTG push is remarkably tight. If you don't believe the pusher has a range that tight, then you might not need to fold AQ. You can study this with SNG Wizard or my program ICM Explorer. I would not make a large adjustment for the blind coming up. If SNG Wizard says the call was wrong by a lot after you adjust all of the ranges, then the call was probably wrong by a lot, and you should not ignore this.

      I recommend using an edge of 0. You need a very compelling reason not to make a play you have identified as +EV. Your main skill advantage is identifying EV gambles, and turning them down usually decreases your skill advantage.
    • evertonroar
      evertonroar
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 737
      thanks pzhon, exactly the information i was looking for
    • mChavez
      mChavez
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.02.2009 Posts: 323
      Hi=)

      I've got an icm question and decided not to create a separate topic and post it here.

      If I'm not mistaken, ICM trainer suggests a rather loose pushing range for situations where you have a stack that is average or slightly higher than average. Suppose you are playing a regular 9seat sng and you are on the bubble or approaching it (4-6 players left, blinds are high). Should you tighten up and just try to keep your stack around 9-12 BB and push as little as possible or is it better to play a more aggressive game since your gain in chips is more likely to give you the first place, compensating for extra sngs lost because of loose pushing?
      Another point here: loose pushing leads to opponents increasing their calling ranges against you. Even if they call you with a weaker hand (say you have 60-70% equity), is this enough to compensate for your losses from being the bubble boy more often?
      Thanks!


      PS what is ICM explorer? And is there software where you can post your own hands for review.

      PPS Just got a warning from PokerStars for running ICM trainer while starting a tournament. This doesn't make any sense as you cannot post your hands to it quickly enough. or can you?
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      mChavez, you really should make another thread for that. Otherwise, it will be harder for people to separate topics, and to find the discussions they want.
    • dangermowse
      dangermowse
      Silver
      Joined: 24.10.2010 Posts: 1,185
      Everton I don't what range you put utg on (don't know if ICM trainer allows you to do that) but AQ there is an easy call. U can take a pretty significant neg edge in your spot with 4.5bbs, AQ is the nuts here even vs utg's range.