To move up? or not? When? or Stay where I'm good at?

    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Hi,

      I need an advise here. I have a dilemma.

      I play at PokerStars. I focus on playing MTT's and doing quite well.

      I usually play
      • $1.40 90 Player KnockOut Tournament
      • 25cents 90 Player Tournament
      • $1 Scheduled Tourneys


      I started last October. By focusing on these tourneys, I have built up my bankroll from $100 to $800 with an ITM rate of 27%.

      Now I thought I'm ready to risk more on the schedules tourneys with buy-ins ranging from $1 to $4 and also playing the $4 180 Player Tourney.

      Doing this in the last 3 days, I lost $100 in the process. I had almost no wins. Losing $100 is quite a blow to my bankroll so now I'm considering, should I really try to risk more or stay when I'm good at?

      I'm hoping to have an advise here. Thanks a lot.
  • 23 replies
    • Salivanth
      Salivanth
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.01.2011 Posts: 587
      Technically, you can still support it with your bankroll. The question is: Do you feel confident enough? If you don't feel confident playing at those limits, you should move down where you'll play better. If there are 2-3 dollar MTT's, maybe play them for a while.

      Good luck!
    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Originally posted by Salivanth
      Technically, you can still support it with your bankroll. The question is: Do you feel confident enough? If you don't feel confident playing at those limits, you should move down where you'll play better. If there are 2-3 dollar MTT's, maybe play them for a while.

      Good luck!
      i know i have the skills to win but i'm not very confident enough considering i lost that much in the last few days. it often upsets me when i get bad beat. like one time when i have pocket KK, 30k chips, 400/800 blinds. i thought i could finally have a deep run here. someone raised, I 3-bet him, he shoved, i called, he showed pocket Tens. and on the flop, he gets his set. =(

      so my dilemma, i know i have the skills but it upsets me if continuous bad beats blows a big portion of my bankroll. i know this is affecting me psychologically and i know i have to overcome it if i want to win in these tourneys. hayz

      thanks for the advise! i appreciate it!
    • AjoPP1
      AjoPP1
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2010 Posts: 119
      You need to work on your mindset. If you are sure that you play your hands correctly then no bad beats should upset you ! I know they suck but you are profitting in the long run. Just get over them and play your A-game all the time. I know it's been said a hundred times but that's how it is. :f_cool:
    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Originally posted by AjoPP1
      You need to work on your mindset. If you are sure that you play your hands correctly then no bad beats should upset you ! I know they suck but you are profitting in the long run. Just get over them and play your A-game all the time. I know it's been said a hundred times but that's how it is. :f_cool:
      Yeah, i need to work on my mindset. I decided I would probably take lesser risks and stay on the $1 Tourneys and $1.40 90 Player Knockout. Until my mindset is set that I could take blows playing the $3-$5, i'll stay on this level.

      I decided to focus on targeting a quota of $50 profit per day. I'm hungry to win bigger tourneys but i think i have to suppress that craving for now and be more disciplined.

      Thanks for the advise bro! ^_^
    • amplifyd
      amplifyd
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 1,769
      Just take a shot, drop back down grind it back. Take another shot.

      Eventually you run good and your shot gets through.

      This what I do if I'm not that comfortable to just start playing a particular limit.

      Or just mix in a few higher $ whilst you're playing other games - but this isn't neccesarily best idea since there are a few nuances to the 4/180s that if you play like a "one game fits all" for both $1 and $4 you will lose.
    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Originally posted by amplifyd
      Just take a shot, drop back down grind it back. Take another shot.

      Eventually you run good and your shot gets through.

      This what I do if I'm not that comfortable to just start playing a particular limit.

      Or just mix in a few higher $ whilst you're playing other games - but this isn't neccesarily best idea since there are a few nuances to the 4/180s that if you play like a "one game fits all" for both $1 and $4 you will lose.
      thanks for the advise bro! hoping my shot would get through eventually.

      since i just started playing real money last October, am I still considered a new player and gets the privilege to use the excuse, "since i'm still new, it's just normal that i won't get my shot through immediately" ??? hahaha ^_^
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      While your ITM% converges much faster than your ROI, the ROI is important while the ITM% is not. Try to focus on your ROI. Don't get too excited about minimum cashes.

      Amplifyd's suggestion of taking a shot is good. Set aside an amount you can afford to lose to try the next level. Play 100 tournaments or until the money runs out, and then reassess. Do not move up permanently just because your bankroll would make someone else safe. Only move up if you have the skills and bankroll, and be prepared to move back down to rebuild.

      AjoPP1's suggestion of using a stop-win is very dangerous, and I don't recommend it. A stop-win (or stop-loss) does not let you control variance. It gives you an illusion of control, which might make you feel better, but it can encourage both poor play and poor game selection. It doesn't prevent downswings.

      You should be prepared for 100 buy-in downswings. Your bankroll is there so you can survive those. If you look up the players on Sharkscope with the most total profit in 180 player SNGs in 2010, you will see many 50 buy-in and some 100 buy-in downswings, and these are players with ROIs close to 50%.

      Whether you move up depends on your poker goals, but you need to move up eventually if you want a chance to win more $/hour.
    • jass1960
      jass1960
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2010 Posts: 709
      Originally posted by YinYangS
      Hi,

      I need an advise here. I have a dilemma.

      I play at PokerStars. I focus on playing MTT's and doing quite well.

      I usually play
      • $1.40 90 Player KnockOut Tournament
      • 25cents 90 Player Tournament
      • $1 Scheduled Tourneys


      I started last October. By focusing on these tourneys, I have built up my bankroll from $100 to $800 with an ITM rate of 27%.

      Now I thought I'm ready to risk more on the schedules tourneys with buy-ins ranging from $1 to $4 and also playing the $4 180 Player Tourney.

      Doing this in the last 3 days, I lost $100 in the process. I had almost no wins. Losing $100 is quite a blow to my bankroll so now I'm considering, should I really try to risk more or stay when I'm good at?

      I'm hoping to have an advise here. Thanks a lot.
      Last year I was in a very similar position playing $1 games. The first time I moved up I was nervous and this affected my play and I realise that I didn't play my A game.

      Good BRM forced me to move down. The next time I moved up I was over bank-rolled for the limit and as such the money was not the major factor. That time I played my A game and cruised through the $4 limit.

      Again I was over bankrolled for $11 and was confident to play my A game again. Again I won. Now I play anything from $1-$12 depending on what is available, my mood and what I am working on in my game - much easier to try a looser style if all you lose is a $1 buy-in.

      If you are a good player you can win consistently at these levels.

      Good Luck

      Jass :D
    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Originally posted by pzhon
      While your ITM% converges much faster than your ROI, the ROI is important while the ITM% is not. Try to focus on your ROI. Don't get too excited about minimum cashes.

      Amplifyd's suggestion of taking a shot is good. Set aside an amount you can afford to lose to try the next level. Play 100 tournaments or until the money runs out, and then reassess. Do not move up permanently just because your bankroll would make someone else safe. Only move up if you have the skills and bankroll, and be prepared to move back down to rebuild.

      AjoPP1's suggestion of using a stop-win is very dangerous, and I don't recommend it. A stop-win (or stop-loss) does not let you control variance. It gives you an illusion of control, which might make you feel better, but it can encourage both poor play and poor game selection. It doesn't prevent downswings.

      You should be prepared for 100 buy-in downswings. Your bankroll is there so you can survive those. If you look up the players on Sharkscope with the most total profit in 180 player SNGs in 2010, you will see many 50 buy-in and some 100 buy-in downswings, and these are players with ROIs close to 50%.

      Whether you move up depends on your poker goals, but you need to move up eventually if you want a chance to win more $/hour.
      at the moment, i have 35% ROI. Is that good enough for my level?
      Thanks for the suggestions. I think it really boils down to being prepared and staying focused on doing my A-game. Thanks a lot!
    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Originally posted by jass1960
      Originally posted by YinYangS
      Hi,

      I need an advise here. I have a dilemma.

      I play at PokerStars. I focus on playing MTT's and doing quite well.

      I usually play
      • $1.40 90 Player KnockOut Tournament
      • 25cents 90 Player Tournament
      • $1 Scheduled Tourneys


      I started last October. By focusing on these tourneys, I have built up my bankroll from $100 to $800 with an ITM rate of 27%.

      Now I thought I'm ready to risk more on the schedules tourneys with buy-ins ranging from $1 to $4 and also playing the $4 180 Player Tourney.

      Doing this in the last 3 days, I lost $100 in the process. I had almost no wins. Losing $100 is quite a blow to my bankroll so now I'm considering, should I really try to risk more or stay when I'm good at?

      I'm hoping to have an advise here. Thanks a lot.
      Last year I was in a very similar position playing $1 games. The first time I moved up I was nervous and this affected my play and I realise that I didn't play my A game.

      Good BRM forced me to move down. The next time I moved up I was over bank-rolled for the limit and as such the money was not the major factor. That time I played my A game and cruised through the $4 limit.

      Again I was over bankrolled for $11 and was confident to play my A game again. Again I won. Now I play anything from $1-$12 depending on what is available, my mood and what I am working on in my game - much easier to try a looser style if all you lose is a $1 buy-in.

      If you are a good player you can win consistently at these levels.

      Good Luck

      Jass :D
      As of the moment, I have a $600 bankroll. I might be comfortable on shooting at the $4 when I have around $1,200 bankroll or so.

      Hoping that like you, I'd be able to move up to those higher buy-ins soon.
      Wishing myself all the luck! ^_^
    • jass1960
      jass1960
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2010 Posts: 709
      Originally posted by YinYangS
      Originally posted by pzhon
      While your ITM% converges much faster than your ROI, the ROI is important while the ITM% is not. Try to focus on your ROI. Don't get too excited about minimum cashes.

      Amplifyd's suggestion of taking a shot is good. Set aside an amount you can afford to lose to try the next level. Play 100 tournaments or until the money runs out, and then reassess. Do not move up permanently just because your bankroll would make someone else safe. Only move up if you have the skills and bankroll, and be prepared to move back down to rebuild.

      AjoPP1's suggestion of using a stop-win is very dangerous, and I don't recommend it. A stop-win (or stop-loss) does not let you control variance. It gives you an illusion of control, which might make you feel better, but it can encourage both poor play and poor game selection. It doesn't prevent downswings.

      You should be prepared for 100 buy-in downswings. Your bankroll is there so you can survive those. If you look up the players on Sharkscope with the most total profit in 180 player SNGs in 2010, you will see many 50 buy-in and some 100 buy-in downswings, and these are players with ROIs close to 50%.

      Whether you move up depends on your poker goals, but you need to move up eventually if you want a chance to win more $/hour.
      at the moment, i have 35% ROI. Is that good enough for my level?
      Thanks for the suggestions. I think it really boils down to being prepared and staying focused on doing my A-game. Thanks a lot!

      35% is a good ROI if you have a sample size of 1000+ . Coach will give you the +- Variation - but if you have played 1000+ then you are a winning player and she well be able to cope at a higher limit:D
    • jass1960
      jass1960
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2010 Posts: 709
      Make it $1000

      and play 100 $4 and the reassess :D
    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Originally posted by jass1960
      35% is a good ROI if you have a sample size of 1000+ . Coach will give you the +- Variation - but if you have played 1000+ then you are a winning player and she well be able to cope at a higher limit
      total MTT's i played is 1700. so i think that's good enough?

      got 35% ROI and 28% ITM rate. =)
    • amplifyd
      amplifyd
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 1,769
      Originally posted by YinYangS
      Originally posted by jass1960
      35% is a good ROI if you have a sample size of 1000+ . Coach will give you the +- Variation - but if you have played 1000+ then you are a winning player and she well be able to cope at a higher limit
      total MTT's i played is 1700. so i think that's good enough?

      got 35% ROI and 28% ITM rate. =)
      Just guessing here but I think you are playing to get itm too much. Play to win.
    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Originally posted by amplifyd


      Just guessing here but I think you are playing to get itm too much. Play to win.
      well, my first goal is always to get in the money.

      i have a tight aggressive style early in the tournament.
      if blinds are about 200 already, i start to loosen up at late and mid position to steal blinds.
      at bubble stage, if i am mid-stack or short-stack, i play tight.
      in the final table, my play depends on the type of players.


      if only i have a personal coach with me to check any leaks in my game.
    • amplifyd
      amplifyd
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 1,769
      Originally posted by YinYangS
      well, my first goal is always to get in the money.

      i have a tight aggressive style early in the tournament.
      if blinds are about 200 already, i start to loosen up at late and mid position to steal blinds.
      at bubble stage, if i am mid-stack or short-stack, i play tight.
      in the final table, my play depends on the type of players.


      if only i have a personal coach with me to check any leaks in my game.
      Sure but in playing to win - your goal is sort of intristically there. You will see a much higher ROI. I think on 25c's 100% is v sustainable. On $1 90mans you should really be seeing around the 50%+ benchmark - ofc your sample isn't so great yet but I suspect you aren't aiming for 1st enough.

      Sounds like you gotta sort the stacks/stages game right. I would suggest at like 4$s+ you open up your ranges earlier and play a lot more speculative hands (esp from late position) - but you have to get a little more confident postflop first.

      I'm not trying to like say you are not playing well or anything like that - your results are v good just trying to give you a few tips. Because people will play attention to like image and stuff at $4+ so you can't just play 10/10/4 :D
    • YinYangS
      YinYangS
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2010 Posts: 1,077
      Originally posted by amplifyd

      Sure but in playing to win - your goal is sort of intristically there. You will see a much higher ROI. I think on 25c's 100% is v sustainable. On $1 90mans you should really be seeing around the 50%+ benchmark - ofc your sample isn't so great yet but I suspect you aren't aiming for 1st enough.

      Sounds like you gotta sort the stacks/stages game right. I would suggest at like 4$s+ you open up your ranges earlier and play a lot more speculative hands (esp from late position) - but you have to get a little more confident postflop first.

      I'm not trying to like say you are not playing well or anything like that - your results are v good just trying to give you a few tips. Because people will play attention to like image and stuff at $4+ so you can't just play 10/10/4 :D
      thanks for the tips! i'll try to keep them in mind. =)
    • jass1960
      jass1960
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2010 Posts: 709
      [quote]Originally posted by amplifyd
      Originally posted by YinYangS
      Because people will play attention to like image and stuff at $4+ so you can't just play 10/10/4 :D
      Strangely enough a lot of the very good players are 10/9 - I guess that they know there are a lot of fish who will pay them off irrespective of their table image. Especially true on FT Rush $4. :D
    • evertonroar
      evertonroar
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.06.2009 Posts: 737
      [quote]Originally posted by YinYangS

      Yeah, i need to work on my mindset. I decided I would probably take lesser risks and stay on the $1 Tourneys and $1.40 90 Player Knockout. Until my mindset is set that I could take blows playing the $3-$5, i'll stay on this level.

      I decided to focus on targeting a quota of $50 profit per day. quote]

      NO!!!!! . i think this is areally bad idea - the last thing you want to do is set qoutas of profit. You may play great and not make it due to variance - result you feel bad like you havnt a 'achieved' OR you play crap, variance is on your side and you make it and you feel like you have done well.

      OR you chase losses when playing not so well - result you lose more OR you stop playing when you are playing well and lose the oppurtunity to win more.
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