[NL2-NL10] NL2 K3s - blind defense

    • cruizer
      cruizer
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.06.2009 Posts: 17
      First post here so I hope I get it right. Basically I'm looking for feedback on whether my thinking about this hand is along the right lines (been reading up on pot odds, equity, +/-EV until it's just a big mess in my head. ?( )

      I'm in big blind, CO just joined the table. He posted dead blind and I have no other info on him. When he raises pre-flop I assume it's a blind steal attempt and considering his dead blind I put him on a relatively loose hand range (pocket pairs, any Ace and just about any King).
      Equity-wise I think I'm just under 50% against his range and I believe I get pot odds to call.

      I check the flop as I'm on a draw, didn't raise pre-flop and there's no point in placing a value bet with this hand. He bets and I believe I still have the odds to call with my flush draw even though he could reasonably have me beat at this point with a set or an overpair (or just have two overcards) or he's just c-betting trying to steal the pot.

      When I hit my 2nd nut flush on the turn I bet slightly less than 2/3rd pot and get called. At this point I'm not sure what to put him on. Potentially still an overpair or a set with him not believing I hit the flush as I didn't ship it or something (microstakes make me dizzy at times since there seems to be very little logic to how many players play!). Something I didn't consider at the time was that he might be drawing with the Ac, but I think my turn bet should've made it -EV for him to call hoping for a last club on the river, or...?

      Anyway, with the river being fairly safe for my flush I shove.

      So is the thought process reasonably ok, and could/should I have played this differently?

      I'm not following SSS or MSS strategy as I've tried them (albeit very briefly) and believe I build a way too tight table image with those - leading to not getting paid off very often (even at microstakes) once I have a hand to play. Hence I'm trying to get my head around +/-EV, odds etc in order to learn to play a wider range of hands.

      Full Tilt - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      Hero (BB): $0.80
      UTG: $0.64
      UTG+1: $0.27
      MP: $1.79
      MP+1: $0.97
      LP: $1.30
      CO: $0.80
      BTN: $0.46
      SB: $0.63

      SB posts SB $0.01, Hero posts BB $0.02, CO posts DB $0.02

      Pre Flop: ($0.05) Hero has 3:club: K:club:

      fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to $0.06, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.04

      Flop: ($0.13, 2 players) 8:heart: 5:club: 4:club:
      Hero checks, CO bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10

      Turn: ($0.33, 2 players) 2:club:
      Hero bets $0.20, CO calls $0.20

      River: ($0.73, 2 players) Q:heart:
      Hero bets $0.44 and is all-in
  • 8 replies
    • AlCaTrAzzALZ
      AlCaTrAzzALZ
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.05.2008 Posts: 726
      even tho it can be easy to think 'ah it's only 4c more' i believe this is a very easy fold pre flop. even with the CO posting then raising, our hand is dominated by alot of his range (remember that even when someone posts, they can get a hand ;) )

      another option if you really do think he is weak, is raise him pre flop. in this situation, i would 3bet to somewhere like 13c, then fold to a shove. however, i probably dont recomend this play at NL2 ;)

      even if we give villain a VERY wide range of 40%, we're still behind, so i dont really like a 3bet shove here (esp as we polarise his range to probably top 10% at least)

      Hand 0: 42.809% 40.76% 02.05% 341968208 17210329.00 { Kc3c }
      Hand 1: 57.191% 55.14% 02.05% 462640094 17210329.00 { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }


      now, as played, i like to lead on the flop here. it lets us set the price for our draw, we can re-evaluate if villain decides to shove on us. it also gives us fold equity, as when you look at the range i've given villain above, alot of that misses on this sort of board.

      also, when villain cbets here, i probably shove over him, again for fold equity (as this isn't the easiest board for a raising hand to hit) and we still have a FD to fall back on if we get called.


      hope this helps ;)

      alc
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Hey Cruizer,

      Preflop is either a 3bet or fold spot. What you want to hit with K3 ? Mostly a flushdraw because a Toppair Kings is very vulnerable due your kicker!

      The Flop is ideally for a check/raise semibluff. I don't like leading as people will mostly call down twice with semi made hands. Also chekc/call just allows your opponent to utilize positional advantage

      I'm not following SSS or MSS strategy as I've tried them (albeit very briefly) and believe I build a way too tight table image with those - leading to not getting paid off very often (even at microstakes) once I have a hand to play. Hence I'm trying to get my head around +/-EV, odds etc in order to learn to play a wider range of hands.

      A solid fundamental of preflop play will result in you playing more aggressively at some point in a solid way. If you start out by playing loose yourself (like this hand), you will spew a lot of money ;) It's a natural development like you don't start out as a PHD degree person but you start out in high school etc.

      - Gerv
    • cruizer
      cruizer
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.06.2009 Posts: 17
      Thanks for the quick response!

      Originally posted by Gerv
      Preflop is either a 3bet or fold spot. What you want to hit with K3 ? Mostly a flushdraw because a Toppair Kings is very vulnerable due your kicker!
      I was indeed looking for a flush draw and would've folded on flop if I didn't hit anything reasonable and he showed resistance. This thought alone should've probably told me to fold pre-flop! :)

      Originally posted by Gerv
      A solid fundamental of preflop play will result in you playing more aggressively at some point in a solid way. If you start out by playing loose yourself (like this hand), you will spew a lot of money ;) It's a natural development like you don't start out as a PHD degree person but you start out in high school etc.
      Yes, agreed in hindsight that this was too loose and a great way of spewing cash. I do want to emphasize that I've played according to MSS previously so am aware of the strategy and charts. This hand was one of my first strays from the strategy after trying to get my head around odds and EV and an attempt at using them at the tables. Hence my desire to find out whether my thought processes were heading in the right direction. Still some ways to go obviously. :)

      My main frustration (I guess) with MSS is that I tend to end up with 5/5 VP/PFR and seeing my blinds getting eaten round by round. And when I finally hit something it is highly unlikely that anyone who's paid any kind of attention around the table actually pays me off. I am well aware that one of my main leaks is patience though! :)

      Playing single table at NL2 is an attempt at teaching myself how much I can widen my range while adhering to +EV moves without going broke anytime soon. E.g. an attempt to learn the math behind the strategies to figure out when to strictly stick to them and when it's profitable in the long run to stray a bit.

      Again, thanks for the quick response. Much appreciated!
    • cruizer
      cruizer
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.06.2009 Posts: 17
      Originally posted by AlCaTrAzzALZ
      even tho it can be easy to think 'ah it's only 4c more' i believe this is a very easy fold pre flop. even with the CO posting then raising, our hand is dominated by alot of his range (remember that even when someone posts, they can get a hand ;) )
      [SNIP]
      even if we give villain a VERY wide range of 40%, we're still behind, so i dont really like a 3bet shove here (esp as we polarise his range to probably top 10% at least)

      Hand 0: 42.809% 40.76% 02.05% 341968208 17210329.00 { Kc3c }
      Hand 1: 57.191% 55.14% 02.05% 462640094 17210329.00 { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
      But with say 40/60 equity vs his range I get 1:1.5 odds and with pot odds being 2.25 (pay $0.04 for taking part in $0.09 pot) it's still a +EV move to call, right? This is what I'm trying to get my head around and learn so this is probably the core of my reason for posting this hand.

      Did I, or didn't I, play this in a +EV correct way - e.g. do I have a clue or am I completely clueless? ;)
    • Heffron89
      Heffron89
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2009 Posts: 813
      If your calling K3s to hit flushdraw are u calling any suited ace any suited king etc?
    • cruizer
      cruizer
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.06.2009 Posts: 17
      In a blind defense position, probably yes. Leakish I guess.

      Like I said, this is the beginning of exploring outside starting hand charts. And this might be exploring too far outside. :)
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by cruizer
      In a blind defense position, probably yes. Leakish I guess.

      Like I said, this is the beginning of exploring outside starting hand charts. And this might be exploring too far outside. :)
      You just have to know the odds of hitting a flushdraw on Flop, then hitting thea ctual flush and then seeing if you can get his stack (= he has to have something)

      Nutshell: too many variables to make a call profitable.

      Or in other words: Ask first and then shoot later (so theo ther way around =) )
    • cruizer
      cruizer
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.06.2009 Posts: 17
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Or in other words: Ask first and then shoot later (so theo ther way around =) )
      Now that's what I call helpful advice! :) Thanks.