Raise based on position vs raising based on hole card

    • brobz
      brobz
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      this is mainly for preflop

      I have read alot on raising and when I first started to read poker books, mainly an article by Ferguson and Gordon talk about always raising based on position never on hole cards. E.g EP raise 2-2.5xbb, MP raise 3-3.5xbb, LP raise 4-4.5xbb..

      I am now reading Harrington he seems to advocate raising based on holecards but switching the frequency of the amounts of the raise(e.g. for monster hands: 35% of the time raise 3xbb, 35% raise 4xbb, 15% raise 2xbb, and 15% raise 5xbb.

      My question is as a begginer what is a good strategy to start with? Maybe even what is the better OVERALL strategy in your opinion. I understand the first theory is to consistenly hide the strength of your hand, but I seem to run into problems sometimes when opponents are limping in after my EP raises with marginal holdings and out drawing me, but at the same time I feel like if I raise high EP it will scare away opponents.

      any input?
      thanks
  • 19 replies
    • i5bet72o
      i5bet72o
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      u got it wrong, u can raise bigger from earlier positions b/c of a stronger range in general.
    • dainauskiene
      dainauskiene
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      Hi,

      Everything what is said in those articles is interdependent. Your raise size depends on your range, the wider the range, the less you should raise. The range is different in every position, and you raise more hands in LP rather than EP, which does not deny that your raising size depends on your position or your hole cards.

      I don't know much about raising size frequences, but if you only differ your monster hands raise sizes, good oponents might pick up on that, and you would be giving away quite a bit of information about your hand strength.
    • brobz
      brobz
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      Originally posted by dainauskiene
      Hi,

      Everything what is said in those articles is interdependent. Your raise size depends on your range, the wider the range, the less you should raise. The range is different in every position, and you raise more hands in LP rather than EP, which does not deny that your raising size depends on your position or your hole cards.

      I don't know much about raising size frequences, but if you only differ your monster hands raise sizes, good oponents might pick up on that, and you would be giving away quite a bit of information about your hand strength.
      \

      I am kinda confused. What do you mean my raise should depend on my range?

      Right now if I get AA in EP i may open up about 2-2.5xbb, same as any hand I would open up with in EP, I never raise based on what my cards are, is this wrong?
    • shehanshah
      shehanshah
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      Joined: 02.12.2010 Posts: 385
      Yes it is wrong. You shld always raise big wiv ur gud hands as only gud hands will follow u and have the tendency to go bust.ep-2-2.5bb raise when u hv more than 13bb but less than 20bb. If u got more than 20bb raise 3xbb. If more than 30 than u raise like 4-5xbb. If more than two limpers or raises than just push ur aa, kk, etc.Dont try to hide anyfin at the lower stakes, since they always call loose and push tight.
      If u hv <13bb than go for the push. Never slow play them and get a bad beat. Try to get all the money in with aa pre-flop.
    • HannesZ
      HannesZ
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      Originally posted by brobz
      I have read alot on raising and when I first started to read poker books, mainly an article by Ferguson and Gordon talk about always raising based on position never on hole cards. E.g EP raise 2-2.5xbb, MP raise 3-3.5xbb, LP raise 4-4.5xbb..
      Are you sure that it wasn't the other way around? So EP bigger and in late smaller raises?

      In general your range EP is stronger than in late, so you want to get in more money preflop.

      Whereas your range in late is quite big (you play there much more hands), so the hands which you play are weaker and you still can fold quite cheap versus a 3 bet.

      I hope this answer is of help.
    • Iolar
      Iolar
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      I remember reading some similar ideas about raising small in ep and raising bigger as you got nearer the button. It was quite a long time ago so I don't remember who they were by exactly.

      I think the reasoning was that they raised small in ep because they were hoping to see a fairly cheap flop with marginal hands (if they got raised, easy fold), and also they wanted to ensure customers with their good hands while disguising them.

      They raised larger in lp, i think, because their range was so wide they just wanted to steal the blinds really often, and would only be called with decent hands, against which their range was never dominated.

      How does this sound? Does it make much sense to anyone? I wondered if it might be a LAG strategy?

      Like op, i have wondered about this for a while. I'll try and see if I can find where it's written, and mabye quote it.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
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      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Somewhere in the FTP Academy section, there was a vid about minraising EP and 4x BU. The reasoning was: I want small pots OOP and big pots IP. Well, nowadays youd get 3bet 50% of the time so minraising EP doesn't work. Also, 4x in BU looks like dead money if you do it to often so again you get called/3bet too much by competent players. What is used by most nowadays is raising according to position/range. The wider the range the smaller the raise. Some even have different sizes for UTG to SB. Some just 4x EP and pot or 3x the rest.
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
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      Some useful ideas in this thread.

      The bottom line is that it will always pay to have a dynamic rather than fixed approach regarding this.

      Most will probably advise a larger UTG raise and a smaller BU raise, but you should vary this depending on table dynamics. I will briefly consider the BU + CO just to illustrate some dynamic thought processes.

      Smaller (i.e ~2.5x)

      • Good when you expect the blinds to 3bet aggressively. You save yourself money on a steal attempt and make 3bet bluffs less profitable for villain.
      • Useful when either of the blinds are short allowing you to set up a more favourable postflop stack to pot ratio.
      • Optimal when you consider yourself to have a low postflop expectation. I.e perhaps villain never folds postflop. Or perhaps you open in the CO and BU always calls, making your hands inherently less profitable due to being OOP.
      • When you have a hand that benefits from good implied odds (i.e high SPR) and villain is not adept enough to realise you are raising based on hand strength.


      Larger (i.e ~4x)

      • Good when you expect blinds to call or fold and not 3bet you light.
      • Optimal when you consider yourself to have a high postflop expectation. For example, villain repeatedly calls a 4x or 5x open raise and then folds 85% of flops.
      • When you have a hand that suffers from reverse implied odds and villain is not adept enough to realise you are raising based on hand strength. Raising larger may also create a more favourable SPR.


      Huge (i.e 6x+)

      • I use this exclusively vs preflop calling stations. If they are calling any amount preflop and you have pocket Aces, you might aswell raise it up to 10x.


      The same principles should be considered when raising from other positions at the table. For example UTG raises are usually 4x or more because UTG prefers 3bets or folds to a bunch of people calling him in position. However, depending on the table dynamics, there are reasons you might choose to min-raise UTG.

      Anyway, that's my strategy done for the day. Try not to use a fixed "system", but take the most optimal open raise size after considering all relevant table information.
    • brobz
      brobz
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      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 569
      Originally posted by Iolar
      I remember reading some similar ideas about raising small in ep and raising bigger as you got nearer the button. It was quite a long time ago so I don't remember who they were by exactly.

      I think the reasoning was that they raised small in ep because they were hoping to see a fairly cheap flop with marginal hands (if they got raised, easy fold), and also they wanted to ensure customers with their good hands while disguising them.

      They raised larger in lp, i think, because their range was so wide they just wanted to steal the blinds really often, and would only be called with decent hands, against which their range was never dominated.

      How does this sound? Does it make much sense to anyone? I wondered if it might be a LAG strategy?

      Like op, i have wondered about this for a while. I'll try and see if I can find where it's written, and mabye quote it.
      I read it in Phil Gordon's Little Green Book which I own, which is what I started on.
      Ep- 2.5-3.0x
      MP- 3.0-3.5x
      LP- 3.5-4.0x
      SB- 3.0x
      reasons why I vary my raise according to position
      - commit fewer chips to pot when OOP
      - smaller raise from EP encourages opponents to play against me when I have a powerhouse hand
      - bigger raises from LP put pressure on remaining players to fold and make it harder for blinds to re raise
      -when in position there is more money in pot

      That's a quote from him if you werre interested and others would follow that thought process. Wouldn't this be a TAG strart?
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      The most important thing is adjusting. You have to adjust to your opponents and bet sizing is a key fundamental of adjusting.

      I teach my students to start off min raising every button that its folded to, 1 of 3 things will usually happen

      1) They call too much from the blinds - Great! We win the pot on most flops because they are going to connect with the flop so rarely. Even if they call the flop we can bet the turn and it is highly unlikely they have a hand that is strong enough to continue comfortably

      2) They fold too much - Brilliant! We win moniezzzz

      3) They 3bet (re-raise) too much- Fine! Because we made the pot as small as possible their 3bets are going to be smaller meaning we can call with a wider range of hands as pot to stack ratio is alot better. Also if they are 3betting alot it means they are doing it with a weaker range meaning we can be aggresive post flop leading to lots of pots and our red line (pots won at non showdown on holdem manager) will sky rocket :)
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      Another way we can adjust our bet sizings is when a "fish" limps and fold alot of flops.

      Example, $100nl game, fish limps.. We raise to $4, he calls. Flop is XXX he checks, we bet, he folds. Great.

      Next time same scenario, same bets we win.

      Next time he limps we make it $5, he calls, flop xxx, he checks, we bet, he folds, we win :D

      Next time he limps we make it $6 etc etc etc

      Once he starts folding we can go back down again to where he was last calling too much.

      One consideration here is if you have aggressive regulars on your left who will 3bet you as they know what you are doing, but of course there are many adjustments we can make here too. Generally if you 4bet the first time even if they 5bet jam they wont be 3betting you light anymore :)
    • IngridN
      IngridN
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      Thank you pleno for the detailed answer!

      Always great to know that we have the PokerStrategy.com experts at anytime of the day to answer our members :]

      Ingrid
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      [x] Bronze noob itt
    • Cornie4ever
      Cornie4ever
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      Originally posted by pleno1
      [x] Bronze noob itt
      not even need a moderator status as the quality of answer speaks for itself :s_thumbsup:
    • eso4
      eso4
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      I've found this thread to be atleast amazing. No kidding. So much valuable information. Thank you for posting guys!
    • IngridN
      IngridN
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      Thank you eso4 =)

      Keep the questions coming!

      Ingrid
    • bohemiagrove
      bohemiagrove
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      I have just become a beter player tnks to the bronze noob reply :D
    • bjela
      bjela
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      Originally posted by bohemiagrove
      I have just become a beter player tnks to the bronze noob reply :D
      Me too :D Great topic, great info :)
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      Glad everybody found my replies helpful. Poker really is a simple game, all you have to do is sit down, look at situations and say OK, if I do this what are the pro's, what are the cons, if there is a huge pro you are like WOWWOWOWO this is great! And you feel like really happy with yourself that you have discovered something. Contrastingly you can be analysing a situation or a potential concept that you have in your head, there could be a huge con which totally outweighs the pros. As long as you can identify these pro's and con's it doesn't matter if you ever use the concept again as it means you are thinking anlayltically about the game and not just clicking buttons.

      The micros is such a hard place to get out of but trust me after you have put in some hard work and really analysed your game it is worth it. Get to a decent stake and all the hard work will pay off and you can start all the analysing again against higher level players which is like 10x more fun :)

      Keep learning, keep playing.. TY and GL :)