[NL2-NL10] Nl50 Mss - db flop

    • viccini
      viccini
      Global
      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 337
      Hand Information
      , 0.5 BB (9 handed).

      Table Information
      Seat: 1 sb ($73) Small Blind
      Seat: 2 bb ($55) Big Blind
      Seat: 3 utg1 ($23)
      Seat: 4 utg2 ($26)
      Seat: 5 mp1 ($49)
      Seat: 6 mp2 ($50)
      Seat: 7 hero ($25)
      Seat: 8 co ($18.5)
      Seat: 9 bu ($63) Dealer
      Dealt to hero
      :Qd: :Qc:

      Preflop (Pot:0.75)
      utg1 FOLD
      utg2 FOLD
      mp1 FOLD
      mp2 FOLD
      hero RAISE $1.5
      co CALL
      bu FOLD
      sb CALL
      bb FOLD

      Flop(Pot: $3.75)
      :Jd: :Ac: :Td:

      sb BET $1
      hero ?(

      Hello guys!

      SB = 57/20/5.7/38/47 VPIP/PFR/AF/W$SD/WTS (137 hands)
      CO = 62/7/2.3/31/23 VPIP/PFR/AF/W$SD/WTS (43 hands)

      How am I supposed to play this flop? Call for pot controll (no way ahead/way behind but I keep his bluffing/semi-bluffing range in game - and I still have a gustshot and a backdoor)? Raise for protection since I have another player behind me? Or should I just fold my hand against 2 opponentes in a board like this?

      thanks in advance!
  • 17 replies
    • Gerv
      Gerv
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Raise for protection against what? How many combo's of that is that against Ax for example?

      Also look at the betsizing of Villain on Flop ;)
    • viccini
      viccini
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      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 337
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Raise for protection against what? How many combo's of that is that against Ax for example?

      Also look at the betsizing of Villain on Flop ;)
      Ok. So I should call or just fold my hand? =)

      thx!
    • Gerv
      Gerv
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      I really want you to answer my questions so I can help you understand this properly ;)

      - Gerv
    • viccini
      viccini
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      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 337
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Raise for protection against what? How many combo's of that is that against Ax for example?

      Also look at the betsizing of Villain on Flop ;)
      Maybe protection against flushdraws or hands like KJ, QT, QJ, QT, 98 or even hands like Kx, Qx, 87 due to villain's stats. But I think I'd rather calling than raising this flop.

      The betsizing of villain on flop shows me weakness with these stats.

      Originally posted by Gerv
      How many combo's of that is that against Ax for example?
      Sorry, didn't understand this question lol
    • Jehryn
      Jehryn
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      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 678
      I believe Gerv is referring to the fact that if you do a protection bet you should have the best hand on the flop.

      Here any combination of Ax beats you which, in a 3-way pot, is very likely to happen. So basically you have nothing and you have nothing to protect. So a call/fold would seem the proper action.


      Also the 1$ bet screams "PLEEAAAAAASE DON'T FOLD"
    • viccini
      viccini
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      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 337
      Originally posted by Jehryn
      I believe Gerv is referring to the fact that if you do a protection bet you should have the best hand on the flop.

      Here any combination of Ax beats you which, in a 3-way pot, is very likely to happen. So basically you have nothing and you have nothing to protect. So a call/fold would seem the proper action.


      Also the 1$ bet screams "PLEEAAAAAASE DON'T FOLD"
      humm... ok. got it! =)

      So what do you think here? calling is better than folding?
    • Jehryn
      Jehryn
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      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 678
      Well with c/f I mean check if you can, fold in any other circumstance
    • viccini
      viccini
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      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 337
      Originally posted by Jehryn
      Well with c/f I mean check if you can, fold in any other circumstance
      I see. Maybe I'm been guided by the outcome of the hand but I just can't fold QQ in a board like this to a bluffer like him :D (I have only few hands about him but take a look at his stats). Calling here is really that bad?
    • Gerv
      Gerv
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by viccini
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Raise for protection against what? How many combo's of that is that against Ax for example?

      Also look at the betsizing of Villain on Flop ;)
      Maybe protection against flushdraws or hands like KJ, QT, QJ, QT, 98 or even hands like Kx, Qx, 87 due to villain's stats. But I think I'd rather calling than raising this flop.

      The betsizing of villain on flop shows me weakness with these stats.

      Well you have 2 Q so you block loads of what you said. I also don't think you give away too much equity versus KJ because you ahve 2 Q so I rather call yes than raise as a bluff



      How many combo's does A2o for example have? How many does QT have? That's what I was asking in the second question you did not really understand. Thing is that A2o has far more combo's than QT in this spot


      Does this make sense?
    • viccini
      viccini
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      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 337
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Originally posted by viccini
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Raise for protection against what? How many combo's of that is that against Ax for example?

      Also look at the betsizing of Villain on Flop ;)
      Maybe protection against flushdraws or hands like KJ, QT, QJ, QT, 98 or even hands like Kx, Qx, 87 due to villain's stats. But I think I'd rather calling than raising this flop.

      The betsizing of villain on flop shows me weakness with these stats.

      Well you have 2 Q so you block loads of what you said. I also don't think you give away too much equity versus KJ because you ahve 2 Q so I rather call yes than raise as a bluff



      How many combo's does A2o for example have? How many does QT have? That's what I was asking in the second question you did not really understand. Thing is that A2o has far more combo's than QT in this spot


      Does this make sense?
      Ok. I think I got it. He can have A:spade: 2 :diamond: / A :spade: 2 :heart: / A:spade: 2 :club: / A:heart: 2 :diamond: / A :heart: 2 :spade: / A:heart: 2 :club: / A:club: 2 :diamond: / A :club: 2 :spade: / A:club: 2 :heart: (9 combos for A2o)

      But only T :spade: Q :heart: / T :spade: Q :spade: / T :heart: Q :heart: / T :heart: Q :spade: / T :club: Q :heart: / T :club: Q :spade: (6 combos for QT)

      So it's more likely he has a better hand than mine and I can't raise for protection. A raise here would be a bluff.

      But I can call since my queens are beating his donk betting range, right? And with a call I keep the pot control.

      And what about the turn?

      Hand Information
      , 0.5 BB (9 handed).

      Table Information
      Seat: 1 sb ($73) Small Blind
      Seat: 2 bb ($55) Big Blind
      Seat: 3 utg1 ($23)
      Seat: 4 utg2 ($26)
      Seat: 5 mp1 ($49)
      Seat: 6 mp2 ($50)
      Seat: 7 hero ($25)
      Seat: 8 co ($18.5)
      Seat: 9 bu ($63) Dealer
      Dealt to hero
      :Qd: :Qc:

      Preflop (Pot:0.75)
      utg1 FOLD
      utg2 FOLD
      mp1 FOLD
      mp2 FOLD
      hero RAISE $1.5
      co CALL
      bu FOLD
      sb CALL
      bb FOLD

      Flop(Pot: $3.75)
      :Jd: :Ac: :Td:

      sb BET $1
      hero CALL
      co CALL

      Turn(Pot: $5.75)
      :Jd: :Ac: :Td: :2d:

      sb BET $8
      hero ?(

      Both me and CO called the flop. SB mini donks flop and overbets turn. Now I have a flushdraw Q kicker, a gutshot and maybe some value with the queens. What's the best line here?
    • Gerv
      Gerv
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Well
      1) What is his range
      2) What are your pot odds
      3) Get an equity calculation going with QQ vs his range

      so you can determine what to do ;)

      Best regards,
      Gerv
    • Gerv
      Gerv
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Bump!
    • viccini
      viccini
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      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 337
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Well
      1) What is his range
      2) What are your pot odds
      3) Get an equity calculation going with QQ vs his range

      so you can determine what to do ;)

      Best regards,
      Gerv
      I have a really hard time trying to define the opponent range. =S Any advice?
    • Gerv
      Gerv
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      His range is polarized towards flushes & 2pairs mostly while I mostly lean towards the nuts. He can also have flopped straights but you have 2 Queens so chances are a bit unlikely

      Hand reading is a filter process. You start with a % preflop then you have a board texture on the Flop and then you can start giving him a solid range. The Turn also filters some hands etc.

      Also his range changes if he check/raises or check/calls

      - Gerv
    • viccini
      viccini
      Global
      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 337
      Originally posted by Gerv
      His range is polarized towards flushes & 2pairs mostly while I mostly lean towards the nuts. He can also have flopped straights but you have 2 Queens so chances are a bit unlikely

      Hand reading is a filter process. You start with a % preflop then you have a board texture on the Flop and then you can start giving him a solid range. The Turn also filters some hands etc.

      Also his range changes if he check/raises or check/calls

      - Gerv
      Ok. Got it! thx! :)

      In this specific case he had K5r (no :diamond: =S) but I think the best line here would problably be call flop / fold turn. Despite his high AF and WTSD I think most players won't bluff this turn against 2 opponents and I didn't have reads on him. Correct?

      But know I have a note and know better :D
    • Gerv
      Gerv
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      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      People rarely bluff against 2+ players yes ;)

      Best regards,
      Gerv
    • viccini
      viccini
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      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 337
      Originally posted by Gerv
      People rarely bluff against 2+ players yes ;)

      Best regards,
      Gerv
      :s_thumbsup: thx!