3betting hands like JdJs6s6h

    • 09024875
      09024875
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 1,415
      Hi there,

      I'm from the Dutch community and I recently started playing some plo. In a lot of PLO video's they say that hands like JdJs6s6h are good for 3betting, cause opponents will misread your hand some of the time. I definitely understand this concept, but I also see a big downside, because what is your plan if villian 4bets you? Are you really going to fold? I can't imagine, that it's profitable to continue with this hand in that spot? (assuming we are 100bb deep) Because of this downside I have my doubts about the profitability of 3betting those hands. Can anybody convice me that it's the right move to put some of this hands in my 3betting range?

      Edit*
      I've just done some quick calculations and I found out that you have around 30% equity against AAxx. Because you need 30% equity to call a 4bet I assume it will be profitable to call the 4bet? Or can't we realize our 30% equity, because we will sometimes hit our set on the turn or river? Thanks in advance for your help.
  • 6 replies
    • Ribbo
      Ribbo
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2010 Posts: 6,157
      Realistically villain is only 4 betting with aces if your 3 bet % is less than 6%. Aces are dealt 2.5% of the time in PLO, more precisely 1 in 42 times.

      So if your opponent has a PFR of 15% then aces makes up 1/6th of his range.

      When an ace flops your cbets will have a high success rate and obviously when you hit a set, you can stack off.

      As for if you do get 4 bet 100 bets deep, when you call you will have put 25 bets in and you hit a set 1 in 4 times, so you can almost justify it with implied odds.

      But the point is, it's profitable because of the 5 times out of 6 you don't get 4 bet (and the times opponent folds something like KK or QQ if you've been super tight and he thinks you have aces)

      Remember though that these 3 bets should generally be done in position so that opponents don't float you on the flop as much.
    • 09024875
      09024875
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 1,415
      Thanks! I couldn´t ask for a better explanation.
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      Doesn't Phil Galfond always say 2 pair plays better in a single raised pot?

      If you want to 3bet for deception I think that there are a lot better hands to do it with, and usually those hands have a lot better equity. Hands like JJ66 either flop very good or very bad, which makes them easier to play when the stacks are deeper than AK87 in my opinion.
    • 09024875
      09024875
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 1,415
      At the moment im watching a Phil Galfond video and he actually says that it's better to 3bet them OOP, rather then doing it in possion. He's talking about a doublesuited 9977.

      The reason for that is that those hands play very well in position in a single raised pot, but not quite as well in a 3bet pot.

      Out of position his 3bet range is usually much stronger and high card heavier (in position he has enough low cards in his range). Lets say the board runs out 732r. He has to give up at those board a huge percentage of the time, because his 3betting range OOP is so highcardheavy. Therefore he (lets say he 3bets 9977 double suited) sometimes slowplays his sets on a board like this, to protect his weak overpairs that he doesn't just want to jam. I want to make clear that he only does that on boards like 732r.

      If the board would be J74r he would just bet and get the money in. The reason for that is that people will stack off with their JT9x thinking they're good, but they're actually drawing to a gutshot.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 10,716
      When you 3bet, and opponent 4bets, you can't usually fold. There are some exceptions, but the basic rule is that you can't. If find yourself folding a lot after your 3bet, you are doing something wrong.

      Let's say you and villain have 100bb stacks. Villain raises to 4bb, you 3bet to 12bb. Now opponent 4bets to 36bb. You need to pay 24bb preflop, and you have good implied odds. On flop you need pretty much 30% equity to call his shove, and with 9977ds against AAxx range you will hit the flop for at least 30% equity 1 out of 2 times. And when you do, your average equity is about 60%. So you are making tons of money.

      You will have to pay 24bb. 50% of times you will fold on flop, and lose that 24bb. Other 50% of times you will get the money in with average equity of 60%. So you will win 38bb more on flop, plus the preflop pot (I have fever, so too tired to calculate the precise EV).

      What if opponent has smaller stack? If he has 36bb stack, you just call it. You need to pay 24bb for a 72bb pot, so you'll need 33% equity. With 9977ds you have 41% equity. So with 0 implied odds your basic odds are enough, and when villain has more stack your implied odds get bigger. If you are 100% sure that he has aces, you just call his 4bet. Even if he has something like 5bb's left in his stack. If you can fold to at least 1 flop, it's better in EV than just 5bet shoving 9977ds. If flop comes A22 or AA2 you just fold. And save that 5bb (or whatever).

      I don't know if that makes any sense, as I said I have fever so my thought process isn't that clear. I have made some videos about the math behind 3bet/4bet stuff, maybe they will get translated to english at some point. As quite many players have some leaks in understanding the math behind calling 4bets etc.
    • 09024875
      09024875
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 1,415
      Yea, it makes sense. I think you explained it quite clear too. Thank you for your effort! I appreciate it a lot.