How to increase non-showdown winnings?

    • Alleen86
      Alleen86
      Platinum
      Joined: 27.05.2010 Posts: 4,709
      Hello!

      I have recently switched from fullring to shorthanded tables and am still adopting and learning.. I started with NL25 since I was at NL25 fullring before and i had enough BR for that limit. Pretty soon, I lost 10 buy-ins so I moved to NL10.

      The things don't go very well for me at NL10 eighter. Besides of many leaks I have as a beginner, I have many bad beats and bad luck in general. But anyways, the thing that is shocking me are my non-showdown winnings (loosings in this case :D ).

      I know that most TAG players have negative value of non-showdown winnings, but I wonder if that could be improved in some way. At least, I would like to make those looses smaller.. Is there any way of actually having positive non-showdown winnings?

      I supose that could steal/resteal more, raise continuation bets more, pick better spots for my own continuation bets, donk more etc.. What do you guys think? Do anyone have some good advise?


      Here is my overall graph from NL25 and NL10




      Here are my stats from NL10



      Uploaded with ImageShack.us
  • 37 replies
    • Alleen86
      Alleen86
      Platinum
      Joined: 27.05.2010 Posts: 4,709
      Ok guys, I am still waiting for any respond. :D I feel like home alone.. :f_cry:
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      cbet less, defend more from blinds (3bet mostly), call more in position and ofc don't play fit or fold for the most part, squeeze more, i dunno, defend vs 3bets more prob too, although they prob don't 3bet much at those stakes anyway so defending tight is okay.

      Don't auto call pf with low pocket pairs and stuff, postflop "save bets" by that i mean like if get raised or w/e and have no fucking idea wtf you gonna do on later streets just fold. Or don't c/c c/c just to c/f river (mostly). Idk, just guessing.
    • r4zor
      r4zor
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2006 Posts: 228
      its hard to have a positive nonshowdown winning in micros. i mean they are almost calling you down w/ any hands. and 90% are very weak. you shouldnt think about your nonshowdown, think about your winnings first. its a bad idea to 3barrell off against a fish who are not folding his any2 hand

      i dont know why microplayers are so into it. and your won@ showdown is also. you can start thinking about your nonshowdown if you get to low-midstakes :) they are many fishregs and are folding rivers very often.
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      I'm not that experienced so I'll put my opinion so others can criticize it as well.

      I used to have a horrible red line, and now it breaks even. One thing that helps A LOT is to open up your 3bet range - BOTH from blinds and button.

      Choose your opponents though: if you see someone raising 50% from the button, 3bet relentlessly. Same if the CO is stealing too much and you are button.

      On the other hand, try to steal blinds more yourself. Keep putting pressure by raising then cbetting a lot (vs. the right villains), and this will also help you to get paid of when you do hit (I can see your showdown winiings are not exactly starrocketing anyway).

      About the cbet, I disagree a bit with the previous post. I find it a good way to improve your non-showdown. But it's villain dependant as well: I find some players with 100% fold to cbet... guess how often I'm cbetting them?

      On the other hand, I found your turn cbet a bit high. The turn is more expensive so the second barrel has to be thought more thorouly. As said, two-barrel-then-fold is awful.

      Lastly, explore the early limpers. Impressive how many players limp, call a raise then fold to a cbet regardless of the board.

      I hope it helps, please criticize me.
    • SirPaulius
      SirPaulius
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.11.2009 Posts: 580
      don't fold
    • kakeiho
      kakeiho
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.03.2011 Posts: 40
      Stop cbetting 83%. Lower your cbet a lot, start checking back medium-strength hands and some air on really drawy/wet boards.

      Perhaps raise more bottons and steal more blinds. I am sure if you filter by position and you only graph the BB/SB you will see that you (I am speculating here) that 99% of your non-sd loses are from these two positions.

      Evaluate those hands that you play from the blinds, are you playing fit or fold when you call preflop? Have you experimented with leading out of position when you call preflop from the blinds?

      It is also likely that with your low WTSD 23% you're folding too often the best hand. Reevaluate hands where there's a river and you face a bet and after that you fold.
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Originally posted by SirPaulius
      don't fold
      Well... indeed a villain folding 60% to cbet (our hero's status) is one I would be cbetting (almost) every flop.

      So... fold less to cbets, even check-raise bluffs against villains cbetting too much and the sort could be good options to: 1) get the pot right away (thus improving the red line); 2) slowing the villain cbets down (he will think twice); 3) improving the showdown winnings in the long run, by getting paid off when hits.

      Am I wrong?
    • Bliausmas
      Bliausmas
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.03.2010 Posts: 741
      Very strange I'd say. The most of OP's stats are just great, I don't understand how non-sd line can go down so fast.. Well the only 2 things that comes to my mind are these:
      1. Maybe you bluff too much and tend to give up when unsuccessfully?
      2. Maybe you like to cbet on 2 streets regardless of opponents and board texture, and then give up on the river?

      Also it seems you're not a calling station (stations doesn't have AF of 4.68 and WTSD of 23), so shouldn't be any problems with chasing draws etc.
    • matusko
      matusko
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 05.09.2010 Posts: 5,894
      My NSDW is also going down(not this much though). I think you shouldnt care too much about it and just work on your game in general, you obviously have some big leaks. Flop Cbet is WAY too high when I see players with such stats, I float them so much on dry boards or bluff raise them on the flop or turn depending on board texture.
      I think something like 65-75% cbet is fine. I would check back dry boards which you have crushed(e.g. you have AQ and board is A72 rainbow) and also not Cbet wet boards and boards you think could have hit villains range well. Generally if I see a regular Cbet a JT9 2suited flop I tend to give him a lot of credit since this is a terrible board for him to cbet air. Also maybe add some more 3beting light in good spots.
    • clawindsouza
      clawindsouza
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.12.2009 Posts: 7,085
      Originally posted by r4zor
      its hard to have a positive nonshowdown winning in micros. i mean they are almost calling you down w/ any hands. and 90% are very weak. you shouldnt think about your nonshowdown, think about your winnings first. its a bad idea to 3barrell off against a fish who are not folding his any2 hand
      i kinda disagree...i think you can have a good non showdown winnings at nl10 and 25...but as u mentioned i think its important to play according to the opponent..

      start floating against ppl who have a high cbet%, semi bluff and bluff at the right places and that should increase your NSDW...
    • r4zor
      r4zor
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2006 Posts: 228
      Originally posted by clawindsouza

      i kinda disagree...i think you can have a good non showdown winnings at nl10 and 25...but as u mentioned i think its important to play according to the opponent..
      i say its not so easy to achieve a good non showdown in the micros because they are so many showdownmonkeys, but i wouldnt bluff so much at the micros because its a leak from the microplayers.. they are not still good to spot the weakness, reading the board well.. and they are going to be some spewtards..
    • Flipzors
      Flipzors
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.08.2009 Posts: 45
      you should re-filter the graph for NL10.

      Your graph is not filtered and has an additional -$280 that is not shown in your stats and may be very misleading.

      Or show the graph & stats for NL25 (or where ever the other 10k hands came from) and maybe people can give you advice on that.
    • Alleen86
      Alleen86
      Platinum
      Joined: 27.05.2010 Posts: 4,709
      OK, thank you all for the great feedback! :]

      While reading, I made some notes what to try to fix in future:
      • Less cbeting (more checing kback medium strong hands on dry boards and air on wet boards, giving more attention to oponents), 65-75% of cbet would be fine
      • Less folding to cbet (more floating players with high cbet%, more flop raising or check/raising cbetors as a bluff or semi-bluff)
      • More defending blinds with 3-bets and calls
      • Trying to lead out to preflop aggresors after calling from blinds
      • More stealing blinds
      • Calling preflop IP more
      • More squeezing


      Sorry if my english is not that good. Originally, notes are in Croatian. :)
    • Alleen86
      Alleen86
      Platinum
      Joined: 27.05.2010 Posts: 4,709
      Originally posted by Flipzors
      you should re-filter the graph for NL10.

      Your graph is not filtered and has an additional -$280 that is not shown in your stats and may be very misleading.

      Or show the graph & stats for NL25 (or where ever the other 10k hands came from) and maybe people can give you advice on that.
      This is graph only for NL10:

    • Alleen86
      Alleen86
      Platinum
      Joined: 27.05.2010 Posts: 4,709
      Originally posted by kakeiho
      Perhaps raise more bottons and steal more blinds. I am sure if you filter by position and you only graph the BB/SB you will see that you (I am speculating here) that 99% of your non-sd loses are from these two positions.
      Yep, you are more then right! I am shocked with the following graphs.. ?(













      Uploaded with ImageShack.us
    • Alleen86
      Alleen86
      Platinum
      Joined: 27.05.2010 Posts: 4,709
      So, could you give me some feedback according to the posted graphs?

      I guess I am biiiiig :f_confused: ! :D
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      One thing did draw my attention a lot: why are you winning so many showdowns from BTN (fine) but then losing soooo many from the CO?
    • bazfresh
      bazfresh
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2010 Posts: 64
      EP winnings look low aswell but I guess could just be small sample
    • kakeiho
      kakeiho
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.03.2011 Posts: 40
      Can you post a HEM that list your winnings by position? evaluate whether you're too tight or too loose from the blinds. Have a plan for different scenarios.

      Say a BTN is openning 40% of the times and folding to 3bets 75%

      What hands are you going to call? What hands are you going to 3bet?

      When you do call, are you going to lead or check-raise? How often does he cbet?

      If you 3bet, are you going to cbet? Which boards? What's your opponent calling range?


      and so on.
    • 1
    • 2