[NL20-NL50] nl50 Rush - AA, 3b pot, mono drawy flop

    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,403
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer
      SB ($20)
      BB ($60.75)
      UTG ($74)
      UTG+1 ($49.90)
      Hero ($50)
      BTN ($107)

      Dealt to Hero A:diamond: A:club:

      fold, UTG+1 raises to $1.50, Hero raises to $4.75, fold, fold, fold, UTG+1 calls $3.25

      FLOP ($10.25) Q:heart: J:heart: 8:heart:

      [color=red]UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $7.50, UTG+1 raises to $17.50, Hero??

      unkown.
  • 12 replies
    • StaticMoth
      StaticMoth
      Silver
      Joined: 22.05.2009 Posts: 2,642
      Without A of :heart: , fold

      It kinda looks like a cheap bluffraise, he makes it so small ...
      But still vs unknown I don't want to get it in here.

      Whatever it has, if it isn't already ahead, it has a shitload of equity ...
      And we don't want to assume that an unknown is completely full of shit here :tongue:
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      I guess players would b/c pf with QQ/JJ/AK, maybe even also AA/KK
      If you don´t expect him making the plays you can b/f, but if I would b/f flop I´d rather check back and call him down
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,403
      If you don´t expect him making the plays you can b/f, but if I would b/f flop I´d rather check back and call him down


      He is unknown, so I dont "expect" anything. What would you do here? i.e. what do you think is optimal vs unkown?
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Im usually checking back this ugly boards, calling a non :heart: turn and reevaluating the river.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by Tim64
      If you don´t expect him making the plays you can b/f, but if I would b/f flop I´d rather check back and call him down


      He is unknown, so I dont "expect" anything. What would you do here? i.e. what do you think is optimal vs unkown?
      I think c-bet/shove 80% and go for pot control 20%. Depends if I´m loosing or winning at the session or if I want to gamble at that spot.
    • Tim64
      Tim64
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 7,403
      Thanks - this is what I wanted to hear. Sometimes you say things like "do this if you expect him to do X and do the other thing if you expect him to do Y".

      But thats the problem: we usually dont know what the opponent is likely to do - thats why we post the hands in the first place. When you use the word "if" in your posts you encourage uncertainty. And that is not so helpful.

      So its important that you give a recommendation when you respond - not just tell us what the options are.

      thanks for your time.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by Tim64
      Thanks - this is what I wanted to hear. Sometimes you say things like "do this if you expect him to do X and do the other thing if you expect him to do Y".

      But thats the problem: we usually dont know what the opponent is likely to do - thats why we post the hands in the first place. When you use the word "if" in your posts you encourage uncertainty. And that is not so helpful.

      So its important that you give a recommendation when you respond - not just tell us what the options are.

      thanks for your time.
      ty for the feedback, trying to give more direct opinions! But poker is so much situational game and depends on your opponent. If I really don´t have any information about the players besides vpip/pfr/af the standard answers would be always things that everybody knows. Like b/f if you face aggression on the turn or c/f if you face big river bet. What I want that posters would think a littlebit about the ranges and put themself into opponent shoes. Like would you ever bluffraise that spot or what hands would you barrel on the turn or do you ever c/r turn with just a draw. Then you should make better decisions.
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      Is it +EV to get it in against flushdraws and pair-flushdraw combo's on this board? I know his range is much stronger then that after the c/r but I'm just wondering..
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Tim64,

      Pretty basic spot where I would as well rather prefer Bet/Fold against unknown opponent. Of course sometimes I tend to mix up my play and even Check behind to take pot control and don't want to face a Check/Raise but usually I do it against known opponents. Therefore while we somehow still have to protect that kind of board I am more often inclined to Bet/Fold as you did. You wont get that great equity there anyways against most ranges, and I did put a small range on him as well, which might be a bit tighter but likely which we have to take into calculation as well:

      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 77,622% 75,206% 4,833% 19,961% QQ-JJ, 88, AhKh, AhKd, AhQs, QcTs
      Player 2: 22,378% 19,961% 4,833% 75,206% AdAc

      Therefore I don't really see how I can continue here without having the or any good reads on him.

      If we even take just a AhQs type of hand on him even then we ain't getting that great equity:

      Equity Win Tie Loss Hand
      Player 1: 43,990% 43,030% 1,919% 55,051% AhQs
      Player 2: 56,010% 55,051% 1,919% 43,030% AdAc

      We slightly ahead only, so therefore for conclusion I don't see us being far ahead on those situations.

      Best regards.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by viewer88
      Is it +EV to get it in against flushdraws and pair-flushdraw combo's on this board? I know his range is much stronger then that after the c/r but I'm just wondering..
      sure, we´re not really that much ahead, but at the same time how often does he flop flush or set that we´re way behind his range. Standard play with AhKx would be bet/shove flop, since he can c/r bluffing there, so I think if we bet we can at least b/c flop and shove on blank turn card or if we really afraid that much better hands then check behind and turning our hand into bluff catcher should also be fine play.
    • viewer88
      viewer88
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2008 Posts: 5,545
      I think pair/draw combo's and draws are a really big part of his range here.. if he flopped a set or two-pair hand he should be more inclined to bet out on the flop or c/r bigger... or maybe I'm transfering my way of thinking to him.

      We have slightly more then 50% equity on the flop vs those hands and already some money in the pot so is bet/shoving here really that bad?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by viewer88
      I think pair/draw combo's and draws are a really big part of his range here.. if he flopped a set or two-pair hand he should be more inclined to bet out on the flop or c/r bigger... or maybe I'm transfering my way of thinking to him.

      We have slightly more then 50% equity on the flop vs those hands and already some money in the pot so is bet/shoving here really that bad?
      Bet/Call >> Bet/Shove would be rather my line and not isolate against better hands but the problem is that I expect very often the opponent even with TP+nutFD or some other combodraw hand which is going to Bet the turn as well and we would be in ugly shape and we even don't know him.

      And I wouldn't say like we can exactly base on the Check/Raise size amount here since some people tend to not raise big at all according the evaluations I have done. :D But that's true from some players we can base on such an aspect as if they are raising smaller or bigger which usually indicates to a hand strength.