the basics of reloading

    • belayd
      belayd
      Global
      Joined: 17.03.2011 Posts: 1,021
      What happens if you get your free starting capital and then lose the whole thing? You can't get it twice, so you essentially face two choices: either quit poker permanently or (eventually) reload, perhaps on a different site.

      PokerStrategy has an article on reloading in the "Other" category, but the article is largely promotional. It mostly tries to sell different ways you can participate in PS's affiliate schemes using your own money. It's necessary to have a more realistic approach to reloading than is presented there.

      My view is that what you should do after going bust depends on how you went bust. If you cheated on the quiz by keeping the basic articles open on your computer desktop while taking it, then went and blew the $50 on blackjack, you're an idiot who shouldn't be playing poker. The only reason I'd want you to reload is if I were a winning player and wanted you sitting at my poker table, losing money to me. But if you studied the strategy articles diligently, applied what is taught there with responsibility and discipline, and practised responsible bankroll management, and still lost your starting $50, then it's likely that you have a talent deficit for poker and will never be a truly winning player. In that case I have some respect for you and wouldn't really want to take your money, so you should quit.

      I face a situation in which my starting capital quickly rose to $60, then plummetted to $20 and is now bouncing around between $18 and $22. That looks to continue indefinitely. I think I've been responsible in how I approached poker. Heck, I even studied the basic BSS articles for three days before taking the quiz (and during the quiz, of course, I didn't refer to the articles at all, going entirely from memory and knowledge). But it looks like my talent deficit is sufficiently bad that I'm never going to be anything more than a microstakes regular, the kind of guy who has a winrate between about 5 bb/100 and -5 bb/100 at the 2-cent NL tables. And I suppose that's okay because, as long as I get to keep my starting capital, my poker hobby will pay for itself. Needless to say, a guy like me should NEVER deposit his own money. (Even if winning players wish I'd deposit so that I can move up stakes and they can then take my money from me at the table.)

      So the REAL basic principle of reloading is: deposit only if you have a chance to win.
  • 22 replies
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      I don't agree with your post.

      I had deposited the first time many years ago, and just blew it playing fishy. I had no idea about poker, just played home games. You know the type.

      Then last year I came back to playing live, then decided to deposit minimum on PP to "have a go". Deposited $26, worked easily to some $50 then got a personal issue and, drunk, opened 4 tables and blew the 50.

      Months later I was hanging at some friend's house, we all wanted to play poker but only had 3 players. While we chatted and whatnot, I opened the PP site on play money and started playing. We had fun, accumulated a load of useless play chips, and I thought "ok, this is fun". So I thought about giving it a go again.

      Deposited another $26, worked it up to $220, didn't know squat about br management and it came back to $40. Then I decided to work on my game, read articles/books and practice better brm.

      Now the BR is growing safely and healthy on every site I play. And the most important: I have fun, because this is not my job and I wouldn't want it as one.

      So... I've redeposited twice and do not regret it. But, seriously: you've read the articles for 3 days? It took me literally months to become a break even player, let alone start to have some steady "profit".

      It takes thousands of hands until you realize simple things as your A high flush might still lose in a paired board. Everyone knows that while reading but beginners blocks the info "on the heat of the battle", let alone the infinite subtelties of this game.

      And yet if you continue to lose, come on... wouldn't you pay $20 a month for a nice hobby? You are right, if you blow it on BJ you shouldn't deposit, but if you deposit $20 a month to play for fun twice a week I think that's pretty sensible for some entertainment.

      My 2c...
    • belayd
      belayd
      Global
      Joined: 17.03.2011 Posts: 1,021
      Luiz,

      With all due respect, you don't qualify for what I would regard as a microstakes regular. A microstakes regular plays responsibly and observes good BRM but still doesn't win. You lost your BR several times with bad BRM and stupid mistakes.

      If you are a winning player and you lose your BR through isolated instances of stupid behavior, then perhaps you should redeposit. My post applied only to those who do everything right and still can't make headway.
    • TiciBoy
      TiciBoy
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.01.2010 Posts: 1,235
      Originally posted by belayd
      A microstakes regular plays responsibly and observes good BRM but still doesn't win.
      If you play responsibly, follow good BRM and read atleast basic and bronze articles...you WILL beat micros! Atleast up until NL25 (even there, ABC play still works, but there are somewhat less complete retards).
    • DannyG13
      DannyG13
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      Joined: 28.10.2009 Posts: 1,150
      If you do everything right and aren't making any headway, you're doing it wrong.
    • belayd
      belayd
      Global
      Joined: 17.03.2011 Posts: 1,021
      Originally posted by TiciBoy
      If you play responsibly, follow good BRM and read atleast basic and bronze articles...you WILL beat micros!
      Well, I do play responsibly, I follow good BRM, and I've not only read but STUDIED the basic and bronze articles, and I'm NOT beating micros. My facts belie your theory.

      I think your assumption is based on your experience with micros the last time you played them back in 2008. The micros are a lot tougher now. Some basic talent is required even at 2NL because every table contains at least three or four rocks. I just lack the talent.
    • belayd
      belayd
      Global
      Joined: 17.03.2011 Posts: 1,021
      Originally posted by DannyG13
      If you do everything right and aren't making any headway, you're doing it wrong.
      Why? Since when is poker a game of guarantees?

      I love it when these winning players who last played micros four years ago assume that nothing ever changes.
    • TiciBoy
      TiciBoy
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.01.2010 Posts: 1,235
      Originally posted by belayd
      Originally posted by TiciBoy
      If you play responsibly, follow good BRM and read atleast basic and bronze articles...you WILL beat micros!
      Well, I do play responsibly, I follow good BRM, and I've not only read but STUDIED the basic and bronze articles, and I'm NOT beating micros. My facts belie your theory.

      I think your assumption is based on your experience with micros the last time you played them back in 2008. The micros are a lot tougher now. Some basic talent is required even at 2NL because every table contains at least three or four rocks. I just lack the talent.
      I'm actually back at NL10 (highest were NL50 shots, but got some suckous, some tilt and here I am back at NL10 (was also playing NL5 some time), building my bankroll). So I can say what I said fom my experiences, because I sill play at micro limits. ;)
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Hahaownedlolz
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      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      I do have to agree with Belayd somewhat that the micro's have become significantly harder to beat. You have to already be quite a decent player to beat them while you could beat them easily with prob a bit of basic knowledge and strategy of the game. By no means do i think those players are good or tough.. But i've already put in quite a significant amount of time in poker.. mostly at the micro's.. so it definetly isn't that easy as many experienced players act. (since many experienced players consider a quite solid TAG game with not much leaks as basic poker. While that was probably enough to beat alot higher stakes 5-6 years ago)

      While it might not be the best example.. go on facebook poker.. How bad those players are is beyond rediculous.. like they don't have a brain.. then play NL2 and in my opinion the skill difference is enormous. I imagine players were probably almost as bad as those facebook players are now during the poker boom..

      just my two cents


      @OP i think your being quite negative.. Imo everyone could probably beat low-midstakes if they put enough effort into it.. Just keep working hard at your game and you will see progress ;) If you don't want to do that then just remain a casual player :f_grin:


      (just a note. With micro's i mean NL25. I've not played anything below that in over a year. So i really have no clue really how hard nl2/5/10 are)
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
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      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Originally posted by belayd
      Luiz,

      With all due respect, you don't qualify for what I would regard as a microstakes regular. A microstakes regular plays responsibly and observes good BRM but still doesn't win. You lost your BR several times with bad BRM and stupid mistakes.

      If you are a winning player and you lose your BR through isolated instances of stupid behavior, then perhaps you should redeposit. My post applied only to those who do everything right and still can't make headway.
      No offence taken, believe me.

      But I'm not quite getting what do you mean by "regular".

      Anyway, what is your objective with poker?

      I do reckon poker, as anything, might be easier for some people and harder for others. I've seen toddlers learning the rules of chess and beating moderate adults; I've seen people (I'm one) study chess A LOT and never be more than mediocre.

      That said, I think if you put the time and effort, you should make your profit on the micros. I don't think playing NL2000 is for everyone, but micros is.

      For how long are you studying? How many books have you read? How many hands played? Do you play live too? I find this last one helps to understand different personalities.

      I've seen you post your hands for comments on the forums, but you have doubt's about basic concepts such as TPTK. Everyone has, or had, but it will be hard to beat micros without proper playing of top pair top kicker.

      One more good thing is find a partner/buddy to do sweat sessions. Play together, either at the same place or with some program as skype/micogo. Discuss the hands, lines of though, ideas.

      MOST people don't do all that, let alone play 10k hands afterwards. So those who do will beat those who do not, no doubt about that...

      It's the same with poker, chess, or any activity you chose that involves skill.
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      Originally posted by belayd
      Originally posted by DannyG13
      If you do everything right and aren't making any headway, you're doing it wrong.
      Why? Since when is poker a game of guarantees?

      I love it when these winning players who last played micros four years ago assume that nothing ever changes.
      I was playing on NL2 and NL5 six months ago and can say from experience with the basic knowledge I gained from this site I was able to beat them both very comfortably, and i believe anyone with any discipline would be able to :)
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,915
      My experience is very similar to yours.
      Up to over $60, down to < $30.

      The sudden drop was how I learned about tilt.
      I had two types of tilt.
      In the first, I won a buy-in or more in each of my first 5 sessions, and thought I was SOOO great. That took me back to 50, but then a series of bad beats, and irresponsible all-ins took me the rest of the way.

      At that point, I stopped playing real money, dug out all of the basic and bronze articles, and steadfastly applied the principles with 1000 play chips, with the rule that I would not play real again until I had 100000 play chips. Note that play money games are only partly poker. People bet almost entirely without regard to their cards.

      I read the articles, took notes and made charts to use at the tables and went back to real. I played a combination of NL2 cash, $1+.20 SNGs, both 1 table and 3 table varieties. It has now been two months and I am back to over 60.

      I have a cash game stop loss limit of 1.5 bi per table, and 4 bi per session. (I play 4 tables only). In addition to stop-loss, I play only to a fixed target of hands played, it vaires, but on weeknights, I play 500 hands only (125 per table).

      Every time I get to feeling that I want to call some seeming "wild" bet, I say the word "discipline" out loud. This may be a leak, but If I wait, that wild bet will happen when I have a premium hand.

      Lately, I have opened up and I'm using the Advance Open Rasing chart instead of the BSS chart, and having more success.

      If I have two consecutive stop-loss sessions, I stop for two days, and use my poker time to study the sessions against the "rules"

      Take advantage of the hand evaluation forums.

      Now...
      Put in your own $50 and start again.
      Discipline and study.
      When in doubt fold.
      Don't play tired.
      Don't play drunk.
      Don't play when angry about work.
      Get a HUD and use it.
      Play other players according to how they play.

      You'll do fine.

      Oh, and good luck...
      --VS
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      [...]
      When in doubt fold.
      [...]
      Love this one.

      Best piece of advice was given to me in a Casino a while ago: a bad fold is better than a bad call.

      I think it's an amazing feeling to make a hero call. I think it's delightful to read the villain and the spot perfectly to make a good call; anyone with a full house can stack a villain with a lower full house.

      But it was only with time I found out I was making a large # of plain donkey calls indeed (readless, just out of excitement or curiosity or "fear of being bluffed").

      Then you realize you don't need to call marginal spots to beat the micros, or pull wild bluffs. A small bluff here and there will do and it's fun, but no big ones. It's impressive how people will just bluff three streets at you when you are holding the nuts - and you will stack villains enough this way to make play profitable without any number of marginal decisions.

      I would, e.g., fold every time the board flushed and still make profit without risks. Of course you can't beat a 6max or a higher limit game playing this way, but a full ring NL2 or NL4 you can.

      By the way, just yesterday I was playing NL10, held AQ SB. Opened, BB called. Flop was AAQ. Check, check. Turn is another A. Check, check. River is an 8. I overbet slightly the pot, thinking I would have to win only the tiny pot there, and to my surprise villain comes all in on the top. Need to say "snap call"? He had an 8... :f_biggrin:

      An that's NL10...
    • SickAtHome
      SickAtHome
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2010 Posts: 465
      Here's my advice, might be a bit different from others.
      Try different game types. I myself have gone from FL to NLHE SNGs, to NLHE, PLO FR, PLO SNGs to PLO 6-max

      Another thing is, I only play when I want to. You shouldn't think of it as a "grind". I play four tables and usually play for 1-1.5 hours (that's how long I play until I feel slightly tired) and stop.

      Before, I used to play 12-table FL for 5-6 hours and then realized, I'm at FL 0.1/0.2 and then I realized - why am I playing? I hate this game type, but I was too caught up trying to clear the 500 VPPs to keep my $50.

      Currently, I like PLO - so much more action, excitement than FL (for me, that is).
      So play what you want, do some studying, and you should be fine.
    • Kodark
      Kodark
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.02.2011 Posts: 249
      my advice is never cbet flops you dont own. at microstakes you dont need to be doing this.

      Play only AQ-AK 55-AA From early/middle postion
      open pot from late position with A10-AK, 44-AA, KQs, KJs
      open pot from button with A-10-AK, 22-AA, KQ,KJ,QJ

      Fold everything to 3bet except 55-AA and AK

      When you get to flop If you miss it and you dont hold decent flushdraw/2 overcards check/fold.

      If you have 2 overcards /OESD/Flushdraw call 1 street so long as bet from villian is less than 3/4 pot. Check/fold if you dont hit.

      If you hold overpair lead the betting with 1/2 - pot sized bets. If reraised consider villains liability to hold a monster.

      If you have say KQ and flop comes A K 6 bet pot if called check/fold

      Dont slowplay unless you flop TOP set on rainbow flop/ strait/boat. But better to bet for value.

      If you hold AQ and flop comes K 6 2 or something just fold.

      If you follow that simple strat you will make money at small stakes.
    • belayd
      belayd
      Global
      Joined: 17.03.2011 Posts: 1,021
      I can understand people's resistance to the concept that it's possible to play according to "the book" and still not be a winning player.

      In the first place, you're all winning players, and people tend to resist the notion that any type of person exists except their own type. The possibility that another type of person exists is threatening.

      Second, nearly everyone takes up poker with dreams of someday winning millions at the WSOP. Those who don't make quick progress end up quitting poker and leaving fora such as this one, so that only the winners remain behind to talk about poker.

      Third, and most important, this site is based on the concept that you MUST win provided that you follow the system it teaches, and in general forum posters will defend the principles of the forum they're posting in without any input at all from forum management. It's similar to the reason most churchgoing people go to church: they get to belong somewhere.

      But live to age 45 like I have and you'll realize that Hollywood hype is just that: hype. It keeps society well-oiled and ensures that people keep striving, despite the fact that 99% of us strive in vain. Life will disappoint you someday whether you like it or not, and then you'll realize that I was right. You don't have to believe me right now.

      My original post stands.
    • Kodark
      Kodark
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      Joined: 24.02.2011 Posts: 249
      Wow talk about a depressing post. Life is what you make it. You have the ability to achieve anything if you set your mind and truly give it 100%. The truth about Professional poker is that ANYONE can be as good as tom dwann/ jonny chan.

      But when you say to yourself ok i want to be pro at poker and be on poker after dark, you are having a little dream because you arnt actually willing to put the effort into getting there are you? Humans are by default lazy. Our societal structure makes us that way. If you invest money in a great coach played at least 6 hours a day and studied for another 5, 7 days a week. Reviewed every single hand you played and how you could have done better.
      You dont get to fame after 1 month grind. The human brain is not that effecient. You need to play like above for YEARS. Then YOU WILL BE A PRO POKER PLAYER. If you are not then you failed to do the above in some form.

      I myself cant be bothered with all that so i play pretty casually. I daydream about being number 1 in WSOP like everyone else, but i know that i cant invest the time or money into making that dream a reality.

      Now on topic, mathematically what you are saying is unsound. BRM and the techniques described in this sites articles DO INFACT DICTATE that you will at least break even. If you are loosing money then you are doing something wrong, thats a fact. Yes anyone can lose money on 1 hand but if you have been loosing money over 30k hands how the hell can you say OMFG I DID EVERYTHING IT SAID. Let go of your fucking ego and confess that you didnt, only then can you move on and improve.
    • Kodark
      Kodark
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.02.2011 Posts: 249
      look if you want set up a stream of your game and i will observe it. If what you are saying is true i will see you playing correctly and losing money wont i.
    • luizsilveira
      luizsilveira
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.11.2010 Posts: 2,320
      Originally posted by belayd
      I can understand people's resistance to the concept that it's possible to play according to "the book" and still not be a winning player.

      In the first place, you're all winning players, and people tend to resist the notion that any type of person exists except their own type. The possibility that another type of person exists is threatening.

      Sorry to "disappoint" you but I'm far from "winning player". I'm break even. And I will always be, because once I get better and get the BR I'll move up and (hopefully) break even again.

      People here believe in "playing by the book" and winning on the lowest limits because many did that.

      Originally posted by belayd

      Second, nearly everyone takes up poker with dreams of someday winning millions at the WSOP. Those who don't make quick progress end up quitting poker and leaving fora such as this one, so that only the winners remain behind to talk about poker.

      Again, I didn't make quick progress. My first deposit was around 2007 I think, and here I am, playing NL4 and taking shots at NL10. Far from "quick progress", huh? And farther from winning the WSOP.


      Originally posted by belayd

      But live to age 45 like I have and you'll realize that Hollywood hype is just that: hype. It keeps society well-oiled and ensures that people keep striving, despite the fact that 99% of us strive in vain. Life will disappoint you someday whether you like it or not, and then you'll realize that I was right. You don't have to believe me right now.

      My original post stands.
      I'm not far from your age. And I know the hype is just hype. That does not hold be from enjoying playing poker, either online or line, and beating NL2 ;)

      Now, seriously. I don't know you, so don't take no offence, but it seems to me like a midlife crisis. In fact, you sound like you want to have made it to the "hype" and envy the boys who did and earn millions. But yet you don't have the mindset and discipline to just play ABC straightforward poker and beat the softest games.
    • belayd
      belayd
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      Joined: 17.03.2011 Posts: 1,021
      Originally posted by Kodark
      Life is what you make it. You have the ability to achieve anything if you set your mind and truly give it 100%.
      Thank you for getting to the root of this whole thread. What you've stated is a lot of formulaic hype that people are programmed to believe because it advances society, usually at cost to the individual. The reality is that you can work as hard as you want and give 100% all you want, and you aren't always guaranteed to succeed. In fact, most people fail despite working harder to achieve their dreams than anyone on this forum has ever worked at anything.

      But we've gotten pretty far afield. This is a poker forum, not a philosophy forum. You feel free to stand by what you said based on a lot of Hollywood hype, and I'll free to stand by what I said based on extensive experience with life and observing people in action. There's really little more to be said.
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