[NL2-NL10] NL 25 SH 88 firing second barrel

    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Known players: (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands click here)   
      Position:
      Stack
      Hero:
      $28.09
      MP3:
      $26.76
      MP2:
      $27.21

      0.10/0.25 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.9 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is BU with 8:diamond: , 8:heart:
      MP2 calls $0.25, MP3 calls $0.25, CO folds, Hero raises to $1.50, 2 folds, MP2 calls $1.25, MP3 calls $1.25.

      Flop: ($4.85) 2:diamond: , 2:spade: , T:spade: (3 players)
      MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets $3, MP2 calls $3.00, MP3 folds.

      Turn: ($10.85) K:heart: (2 players)
      MP2 checks, Hero bets $7, MP2 raises to $22.71 (All-In), Hero folds.

      Final Pot: $40.56

      I might be ahead and want to get free showdown. So I used K as scared card. Check behind and fold to his river bet?
  • 8 replies
    • Timor83
      Timor83
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2007 Posts: 2,793
      Bet a little bit more on the flop, say 3.5. Otherwise, well played.
    • Thorsten77
      Thorsten77
      Black
      Joined: 28.05.2006 Posts: 12,896
      See Timor.
    • Nunki
      Nunki
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 865
      If you want a free SD then checking turn has to be best. In these games (NL25 Party SH) there are plenty of villain's who bluff way too much on the river. I'd check turn and call a lot of river bets depending upon villain.

      When you bet the turn and get any action here you are normally pretty much beat and you have only two outs to improve (sometimes ahead though eg.FD). If you were to second barrell the turned K with AQ/AJ instead though you are in much better shape with as many as ten outs versus T-x type hands. Your A might still be good against busted FD's on the river too.

      Betting this turn will force many villains to play correctly.ie.fold 33-77 and continue with most of what beats us. He may even lead into us on the river with a busted draw (after calling turn )and put us to a tough decision.

      In the absence of specific reads, two barrelling is best done when you are likely to have some sort of equity against the hands that are likely to call you and a favourable board texture. Your 88 here aren't in this category but you do of course have SD value. Control the pot and make a value-check.
    • Timor83
      Timor83
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2007 Posts: 2,793
      Checking behind on the turn is bad. A lot of scare cards can come on the river, so you can't profitably induce a bluff. A scare card (overcard, spade)comes about 40% of the time (Count for yourself if you'd like).

      Let's review the scenario's:
      - A scare card comes and Villain bets into us:
      Are you going to call? Basically you're only beating a bluff, so you'll be hard pressed.

      - A scare card comes and Villain checks to us:
      Are you going to "valuebet" your 8's? I don't think so. No worse hands will call.

      - A blank comes and Villain bets into us:
      Only profitable situation where you could call, and still. He might still reasonably have a T or a K instead of a busted flushdraw.

      - A blank comes and Villain checks to us:
      Are you going to "valuebet" your 8's? I don't think so. No worse hands will call.

      If he has a lower pocketpair, you won't get value out of your 8's no matter what. If he has a flushdraw, you have to protect on the turn. If he has a pair higher than your 8', you'll know where you'll stand if you bet the turn. So betting is best.
    • Nunki
      Nunki
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 865
      Originally posted by Timor83
      Checking behind on the turn is bad. A lot of scare cards can come on the river, so you can't profitably induce a bluff. A scare card (overcard, spade)comes about 40% of the time (Count for yourself if you'd like).

      The whole idea of a check is to get to a cheap SD. If a scare card comes on the river and we check behind then that's fine.

      Originally posted by Timor83
      A scare card comes and Villain bets into us:
      Are you going to call? Basically you're only beating a bluff, so you'll be hard pressed.

      Instacall. I'll use the $7 that I didn't bet the turn with.

      Originally posted by Timor83

      A scare card comes and Villain checks to us:
      Are you going to "valuebet" your 8's? I don't think so. No worse hands will call.
      This argument also applies to the turn. We have about 5% equity versus most of the hands that call our turn bet. The few hands that we are ahead of have a ton of outs.


      Originally posted by Timor83

      If he has a pair higher than your 8', you'll know where you'll stand if you bet the turn.

      What if villain calls with a FD and shoves a blank river out of frustration.

      Betting the turn builds the pot to 100BB's and we are perhaps pot committed. I don't think that putting in 1/2 a stack and then folding is hardly ever right, especially since our hand has SD value. By keeping the pot small we make our subsequent decisions easy.
    • Timor83
      Timor83
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.06.2007 Posts: 2,793
      Originally posted by Nunki
      Originally posted by Timor83
      Checking behind on the turn is bad. A lot of scare cards can come on the river, so you can't profitably induce a bluff. A scare card (overcard, spade)comes about 40% of the time (Count for yourself if you'd like).

      The whole idea of a check is to get to a cheap SD. If a scare card comes on the river and we check behind then that's fine.

      Originally posted by Timor83
      A scare card comes and Villain bets into us:
      Are you going to call? Basically you're only beating a bluff, so you'll be hard pressed.

      Instacall. I'll use the $7 that I didn't bet the turn with.
      The first problem with this is that he's setting the price, not you. So assuming that he'll bet only 7$ is highly assumptional. Secondly, a very weak hand (say, a lower pocketpair) will probably not bet into us. And if another scare card comes, it's highly likely that he's not bluffing. Therefore, you can't profitably call anymore, because allthough you are paying nearly the same price as if you would've bet the turn yourself, the situation has changed. If another scare card comes, you'll be forced to make a hero call. And hero calls lose money in the long run.

      [quote]
      Originally posted by Timor83

      A scare card comes and Villain checks to us:
      Are you going to "valuebet" your 8's? I don't think so. No worse hands will call.
      This argument also applies to the turn. We have about 5% equity versus most of the hands that call our turn bet. The few hands that we are ahead of have a ton of outs.[/Quote]

      The difference is that if you bet the turn, the pressure is put onto Villain instead of us. Equity is not the main concern if you bet the turn (though it matters), fold equity is. The hands that we're ahead of don't have tons of outs, the flush draw has 9 (20% equity), the lower pocketpairs have only 5% equity or so. He might even fold a T. There's a reason why position is important in NLHE. This is a clear example of this.


      Originally posted by Timor83

      If he has a pair higher than your 8', you'll know where you'll stand if you bet the turn.

      What if villain calls with a FD and shoves a blank river out of frustration.
      This is again highly assumptional and not a common move among many players, unless he's a maniac.

      Betting the turn builds the pot to 100BB's and we are perhaps pot committed. I don't think that putting in 1/2 a stack and then folding is hardly ever right, especially since our hand has SD value. By keeping the pot small we make our subsequent decisions easy.
      If you label "making a hero call when another scare cards hits" easy, I don't know what you'd label "difficult". You're taking an step in the dark. Hence, most likely -EV. You won't be pot committed if he shoves into you on the river, because you'll need 28% equity to call. Not many opponents are capable of bluffing 28% of the time here, even with a busted flushdraw. It's more like 10%. So that means that the remaining 18% of the time, your hand has to be good against what he has. I'd say that it isn't the case here, because he'll likely check weaker hands to you and only bet stronger hands. So you're not pot committed.
    • Nunki
      Nunki
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2006 Posts: 865
      Timor:
      After inducing a bluff you should obviously call nearly always. eg.Villain overbets after A :spade: hits river is a fold.

      If you can fold-out a T-x hand here then the turn is a clear bet. At NL25SH on Party this is unlikely.

      I think position (on the turn) in this hand (we are readless remember) is best used for pot-control and seeing a cheap SD rather than building a big pot with 3rd pair on a drawy board. There are a ton of spewy river-bluffers at these tables to whom we can expect to lead into us on the river.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      On my short experience there aren´t many bluffers on that board. I like to bet/fold these situations, it´s much easier/cheaper to bet than call a bet.