Reducing Variance with KK? (and other big pairs)

    • Andyuk18
      Joined: 06.12.2010 Posts: 527
      Hey guys, at the time of this post i just busted out deep in another live tournament, just before the bubble. This is not a whine thread!

      I had KK vs AJ and it's the 6th tourney in a row i have busted with KK vs Ax. My results with KK are just as bad online. Now the standard is to just 4bet/5bet jam KK all in pre flop no questions asked, but for someone having such terrible results when doing so, is there a way to reduce this variance and improve results?

      Of course, given deep stacks then flatting against 3bet/4bet could be considered normal.

      However, in most live donkaments, stacks are shallow around 15-30BB and this is the stack range i want to discuss. If you raise and get 3bet should you flat call instead of going all in? Most reading this will instantly think no, 15-30BB with KK is insta shove. But is it?

      By not jamming pre flop, you can evaluate the flop and if there is no ace, shove all in hoping to fold out Ax to avoid the times when people spike the ace on the turn/river when you are all in pre flop. Another advantage to flat calling with KK is disguising your hand and getting value out of worse hand if they catch some of the flop.

      The obvious disadvantage of not shoving is not getting the entire stack of AQ/AK if you fold them out on the flop when no ace, king, or queen hits. Also, if you do flat a 3bet/4bet pre flop and the ace flops, can you ever get away from KK anyway? Given a 30Bb stack to start with, you should still have around 18BB if you raise/call pre then fold on a ugly flop.

      This situation is obviously applicable to QQ and JJ as well. Anyone have suggestions?
  • 2 replies
    • Hahaownedlolz
      Joined: 24.04.2009 Posts: 1,755
      So your plan is to commit 40% of your stack preflop to get it all in everytime an ace doesn't hit the flop? Imo if your ever intend on folding postflop when you commit 40% of your stack preflop then that's a very big leak.

      When your deepstacked you can get away with KK postflop.. but that shortstacked just get it all in and be happy you got it in good. Kinda reminds me of Phil Helmuth folding QQ with 15BB when your talking about even folding KK after committing so much of your stack preflop. The only reason to ever commit 40% of your stack preflop is too shove it all in on every single flop if you ask me.

    • ihufa
      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      in position you could easily flat KK with 30bb, but if u flat OOP with 30bb in a tourney any good player 3betting will put you on AA (unless they think you're a donk), just because you shouldn't really have a flatting range OOP.

      but IP i wouldn't mind it at all