MSS big question thread/application to gervs video series!

    • foulkezboyz
      foulkezboyz
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2011 Posts: 161
      While coming into the game recently through teamliquid and your sponsorship of the TSL, i started by playing SnG's but was spewing cash and i also didnt feel like i was enjoying waiting for the final phase, i also felt like there was not enough post flop play.


      so i decided to give cash games a go and since people were saying SSS was not so viable, hardly even real poker i decided i would MSS instead.

      I Started off by trying to reinvent the wheel and lacked any kind of discipline in my postflop strategy and i was again spewing cash, so a few days ago i decided i was going to make a serious run at it, i added gerv on the community page to ask if i could make his leak finding video for him, i added another MSSer on skype, although both are yet to respond... :f_frown:

      in the last 2 days ive started putting in volume 2 tabling at first and now 3 tabling, slowly, very slowly turning over a profit, at first i was screwing up with my discipline.
      Edit: This has moved up and im 8-12 tabling.


      I have a load of question's in relation to the MSS and poker stuff in general so i thought id throw it all into one big thread so i can get it all together and so hopefully it answers other peoples questions aswell.

      Most of these questions are probably seriously dumb and some not related to mss but i feel like i need clarification cos if i'm messing up somewhere i'm losing profit and throwing cash away.


      1)The ReStealing part of the chart lists the hands to resteal with but it doesnt consider the position of the raiser as far as i can see/tell, Is this meant to be and is it something intentional.
      Restealing: only a raise from the co, bu or sb is classified as a steal, so restealing is only against raises from these positions when all other players have folded.



      2)With top pair, does it matter what the pair is, also is does the jack kicker rule apply with Aces?
      Top pair: that's 10s or better with a jack kicker...does the kicker rule also apply to aces ? I assume so.

      3)In the freeplay chart there is no overpairs? i considered them part of the top pair. was this correct?
      for example with this one, Holding 6/6 in BB with a limper from mp3
      flop comes 345 rainbow, id check/fold until we hit the river and i would bet/call if they were still overpair.

      To qualify as an overpair it must be 77 or better. Since you'd open raise in the BB with 77+ it's impossible to get to a freeplay flop with an 'overpair' as defined by the strategy.

      4) It feels like im bleeding blinds/losing my stack to rake til big hands come along is this a normal feeling or is this something about my play.
      Normal

      5) It feels reasonably easy to push MSS out of pots by reraising, is this correct and an acknowledged problem of MSS or me scrubbing it up and being a noob?

      I think that's part of the MSS until you start using stats and reads more.

      6)I Was confused about this but i think i get it now, the 3betting chart is for when u have been raised before your action, however i was confused at the part where 3 bet chart and restealing overlap cos if you sit big blind and someone raises you from the SB then it is applicable on both the steal/resteal chart and the 3bet chart, i came to the conclusion that you use the resteal chart if noone has limped before the raiser or called after, and if there was a limper before the raise then you use the 3bet chart.
      Also you dont change your decision whether to bet/fold with the 3bet chart if there is callers only the size of your reraise if that is the correct decision.

      Honestly, I'm still confused on this one. The general feeling seems to be that it depends on the opponent. Maybe someone has a more useful answer for beginners ?
      Number of limpers affects only your raise amount, not your decision to raise.


      7)Why do people limp, Is it a good decision to limp ever?
      Probally, but for beginners it'd say it's better to play solid poker and avoid unnecessarily difficult situations caused by limping.


      8)Ive been using pokerstrategy elephant to keep me in shape knowing by bankroll and seeing my own stats and i thought it would probably be a worthwhile thing to have open even if i'm not too competent with it yet.
      the stats it has given me are VP$IP:11 PFR:11 Postflop Agression of 6+ and went to showdown:24
      are these stats normal for MSS and where should they be if they arent correct?

      my stats were a lil high after more hands they are down to 8/8/6+/30


      9)When leaving tables what is the correct way to do it, cos the way i see it if i wait until the BB is about to hit me i see the most hands for paying that BB and i also get more rake/ftp/rakeback if full tilt uses that system.
      Am i going about this correctly or is there something im missing?

      Click sit out next bb and then play till your done, be careful if your stack is very high, tightening my ranges by up 1 card to prevent making an inequitable decision.

      10)Stats, thus far ive been disabling the Hud that it is showing me as i dont understand what the things mean yet and they were just being distracting in terms of viability of the table, and wasting screen space, How should i use these stats and how do they change the way i play.

      11) Note taking on players, When watching gervs video on MSS he was marking people he thought were incompetent players amongst other things, What should i look for when trying to make notes gather info on other players.

      When you join a table and wait for BB you can take note, players who limp too often, or look at the stack, you see a Small/Mid stack player limping, note it down since limping is generally weak and MSS does NOT include limping.

      They raised from what position, by how much. Conti bets - if you see a player betting $0.02 into a $0.16 pot or going AI then that's a donk bet. take a note.

      When a hand goes to the show down, a player can muck cards but you can see them in the video playback. You'd be suprised how many players treat QJo or K9s as monsters. Make a note of them. Players that use chat and talk too much are GENERALLY recreational players who are there for fun. Note it down.

      There are a few other bits n bobs these will come with time.



      12)Alot of my big losses have come from AK, and the MSS seems to be shoving with it when it wouldnt shove with hands that would beat it.
      for example when i put AKs vs JJ preflop the AK only has 46% to win so i don't understand why we wouldnt push JJ in that situation if were pushing with weaker hands, this is probably a seriously UBERfish question but i didn't understand it and wanted to understand the logic/base theory of my moves.
      This question is more about JJ not being put in MP whereas AK is than me whining about getting stacked off in AKvsJJ


      Players will push with A10, Aj, AQ (as well as the hands I mentioned such as QJ, K10, K9) all these hands would be dominated by AK and I think for this reason behind it. Also since it is a strong hand even if you miss the flop it gives you the edge to cbet I guess. (Anyway arguements for/against this welcome).


      13)When playing does it matter how i time my raises/folds/calls/whatever's or should i try to just make the move as fast as possible to see the most hands to increase volume and thus profit or will delaying my timing change my image and give me EV+

      Not at micro stakes or when multi-tabling.

      14)Do i really fold JJ when raised from EP regardless of position, this seems overly tight and i dont understand how this wouldnt be profitable atleast at micro's if not further up when people are tighter.


      I'm a scrub, the answer is fold this one, have since learnt through stack offs vs QQ+


      15)Ive been wondering where the most profitable place to spend Full Tilt points will be and if saving them for when i get Black Card Will be a good decision.
      Ring tickets, But the black card flat peak is fucking sexy as shit.


      16) Im currently taking part in the Take 2 on Full Tilt and it gives me double full tilt points when i sit at the 2 or more ring tables or at rush tables, will this stack with happy hours for QUADRAAAAA points, and do these points count towards Black Card and Ironman.
      Most likely not and they reduce rake back, i do believe :<


      17) I saw Gerv play rush poker to see more starting hands, Is it a good decision to move into rush poker too see more starting hands, or stay at regular tables as a beginner, what are the advantages of both and how else do they differ.

      Rush players are tighter so yuor win rate will be smaller. But u get more hads to compensate for that.



      18) should i be keeping my self at 80 cents if i fall below it should i rebuy even for 1/2 cents to keep up at 80?


      HERP DERP AUTO REBUY




      WOOOOOO THAT TOOK LONG




      I'll edit all your answers into this thread so it becomes a little bit like an FAQ for myself and other New Mid Stackers, that is also an article you should consider putting up, FAQ for MSS.






      Now for part 2.




      Application to part 4 of Gerv's Leak finder video,
      I'm a school student with alot of time to put in the volume, i currently 3 table but will be able to 4 table most probably in the days to come.
      I Started off playing like a schnitzel-fish and spewing cash left, right and center but after repeated falling on my face i see the light and i'm willing to give you whatever needed for your video as having a more experienced player help me out is only a good thing.
      I Really enjoyed your first 2 videos and regardless of whether i am chosen or not, i look forward to it and i am sure i will enjoy it.



      If you got this far then i thank you for breaking through my wall of text and i hope this thread helps all of us new fish in the community!


      Also anyone can feel free to skype me at anypoint and i willl happily talk about poker and the MSS!! Add me on skype at loquenahak



      TEAMLIQUID FIGHTING!!!!





      :f_p: FISH OUT!!!!
  • 6 replies
    • pyure
      pyure
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.09.2008 Posts: 258
      I'll try and answer some of your questions, well the easier ones anyways :)

      1) Restealing: only a raise from the co, bu or sb is classified as a steal, so restealing is only against raises from these positions when all other players have folded.

      2) Top pair: that's 10s or better with a jack kicker...does the kicker rule also apply to aces ? I assume so.

      3) To qualify as an overpair it must be 77 or better. Since you'd open raise in the BB with 77+ it's impossible to get to a freeplay flop with an 'overpair' as defined by the strategy.

      4) Normal for me as well.

      5) I think that's part of the MSS until you start using stats and reads more.

      6) Honestly, I'm still confused on this one. The general feeling seems to be that it depends on the opponent. Maybe someone has a more useful answer for beginners ?
      Number of limpers affects only your raise amount, not your decision to raise.

      7) Probally, but for beginners it'd say it's better to play solid poker and avoid unnecessarily difficult situations caused by limping.

      8) Don't know, lost all my data when my laptop gave up the other day :(
      I think my vpip/pfr was down around 7 or 8 though.

      9) Good a way as any I reckon.

      Don't really have much to say about the rest, someone who knows more that me can answer those for you, except for

      14) Yes, you really do fold jj in early position.

      Hope that helps a little.
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Really interesting post!!! :P
    • foulkezboyz
      foulkezboyz
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2011 Posts: 161
      This thread can be used to ask any question ive missed cos it will probs help me too. :f_love:
    • AKM247
      AKM247
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.05.2010 Posts: 412
      Que pasa matey :)

      That's dedication to a thread right there, nice post.

      So pyure covered many of the questions, I'll try and have a bash at some;

      4. - It is indeed normal and all of us feel this way from time to time imo.

      7. - I VERY RARELY limp - If I have small pocket pair in SB and there are one/two limpers then I get good pot odds to call and hope for a set, or an occasion where I have a marginal hand but pot odds are too good to fold I would also consider it. But personally I do not like to limp.

      11. - I am a big fan of taking notes. You may also notice some coaches have a video play back table open (you can get this on Full Tilt by clicking 'Last Hand' located in top left hand corner of table). I mention this a often in posts because I believe it is a good habit to have.

      When you join a table and wait for BB you can take note, players who limp too often, or look at the stack, you see a Small/Mid stack player limping, note it down since limping is generally weak and MSS does NOT include limping.

      They raised from what position, by how much. Conti bets - if you see a player betting $0.02 into a $0.16 pot or going AI then that's a donk bet. take a note.

      When a hand goes to the show down, a player can muck cards but you can see them in the video playback. You'd be suprised how many players treat QJo or K9s as monsters. Make a note of them. Players that use chat and talk too much are GENERALLY recreational players who are there for fun. Note it down.

      There are a few other bits n bobs these will come with time.

      12. - V Good question, my understanding of this up to now is that players will push with A10, Aj, AQ (as well as the hands I mentioned such as QJ, K10, K9) all these hands would be dominated by AK and I think for this reason behind it. Also since it is a strong hand even if you miss the flop it gives you the edge to cbet I guess. (Anyway arguements for/against this welcome).

      13. To be frank keep it simple for the moment I would say, worry about more intircate things later.

      Another point worth mentioning to you, especailly if you have the time. Try to spend a session REALLY sticking to the strategy and let me know if you notice how well it goes. Personally I feel I have had my best sessions when I have been most diciplined and not strayed away from the strategy.

      I hope this helps. You are very fortunate to have time on your hands I would say make the most of it (I am kinda jealous since I work shifts it makes grinding hard).

      So that said, nice to meet you mate and I hope to see more posts from you in future.

      AKM :f_cool:
    • biogas
      biogas
      Gold
      Joined: 22.07.2010 Posts: 384
      Originally posted by foulkezboyz

      4) It feels like im bleeding blinds/losing my stack to rake til big hands come along is this a normal feeling or is this something about my play.
      Numbers tells thats ok. During 15K hands I played, my loss rate for the hands that did not see flop is around -8bb/100 hands. That gives less than 1BB per orbit. As 1 orbit costs 1.5BB to play, certainly preflop actions pays off.

      Originally posted by foulkezboyz
      5) It feels reasonably easy to push MSS out of pots by reraising, is this correct and an acknowledged problem of MSS or me scrubbing it up and being a noob?
      First this saves u from bad beats, also fishes pays dearly for their draws. Of course if u floped stoned cold nuts, u may try slowplay.

      Originally posted by foulkezboyz

      7)Why do people limp, Is it a good decision to limp ever?
      They watch TV too much and think if Ivey can do that they can do that also (same goes with calling OOP with marginal hands).


      Originally posted by foulkezboyz
      12)Alot of my big losses have come from AK, and the MSS seems to be shoving with it when it wouldnt shove with hands that would beat it.
      for example when i put AKs vs JJ preflop the AK only has 46% to win so i don't understand why we wouldnt push JJ in that situation if were pushing with weaker hands, this is probably a seriously UBERfish question but i didn't understand it and wanted to understand the logic/base theory of my moves.
      This question is more about JJ not being put in MP whereas AK is than me whining about getting stacked off in AKvsJJ
      According to my experience at micro stakes 4bet with AK is not good enough, though it may work at higher levels. Ppl at micros has 4bet range of QQ+ despite the position, and rarely 4bet bluffs (unless its a maniac).

      Originally posted by foulkezboyz
      14)Do i really fold JJ when raised from EP regardless of position, this seems overly tight and i dont understand how this wouldnt be profitable atleast at micro's if not further up when people are tighter.
      EP is reraised by QQ+, AK, so u are in bad shape anyway.

      Originally posted by foulkezboyz
      15)Ive been wondering where the most profitable place to spend Full Tilt points will be and if saving them for when i get Black Card Will be a good decision.

      RIng tickets?

      Originally posted by foulkezboyz
      17) I saw Gerv play rush poker to see more starting hands, Is it a good decision to move into rush poker too see more starting hands, or stay at regular tables as a beginner, what are the advantages of both and how else do they differ.
      Rush players are tighter so yuor win rate will be smaller. But u get more hads to compensate for that.

      Originally posted by foulkezboyz
      18) should i be keeping my self at 80 cents if i fall below it should i rebuy even for 1/2 cents to keep up at 80?
      Use auto top option, never fall behind 40BB.
    • foulkezboyz
      foulkezboyz
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2011 Posts: 161
      thanks for all the great answers and help. ill make sure to edit them into the thread.



      edit:when i stop grinding